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Post by ckfan on Apr 13, 2021 23:19:10 GMT
If bubbles are coming out when it is off, you have a SEVERE case of NCG buildup. I would bleed it before attempting to start it again.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 14, 2021 1:21:13 GMT
If bubbles are coming out when it is off, you have a SEVERE case of NCG buildup. I would bleed it before attempting to start it again. Yes I agree and I believe I do have a server case...I will continue to bleed. Thanks!
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 14, 2021 12:42:49 GMT
Update... I got a points file and lightly sanded the relay contacts again to smooth them out then tried to restart the fridge and it did start up and the relay dropped out after a few seconds as it should. The watts were in the 350-400 range and seemed to stay there. I am assuming a formal bleed will help with that but as before it shut off after about two and a half minutes and I could not get it to restart when turning the controls on/off or to defrost to off and back on. Not sure why it shut down it, has ran for longer periods of time although not much longer... I am guessing it still needs to be bleed or could there be some other problem. For the few minutes it did run the dome started to get warm, the condenser coils and float were the same temps. This thing sure is finicky and not really sure what to do? Bubbles are still coming out of the oil when it is running, not running, heater off or heater on. I may just try to do ANOTHER pre-running purge? I really have not smelled any large amout of methal formate. The bubbles either have no smell at all or once in a while after a minute or so I can catch of whiff of that kinda sweet smell and I close the valve. I hope the CK I have to get running next is not this challenging! Any ideas fellas. Thanks in advance Dean Hi Dean. You did good to get the relay fixed! As for the pre-bleeding; you need to release ALL of the pressure from the machine. If the temperature of all parts is below 80°F then the methyl formate will not boil and will not be lost. With the machine cool and stopped without heater; release all pressure from the machine from the port. Just be sure air doesn't go back in afterwards. Without heat and without the compressor running, there will be nothing to drive out methyl formate, so the only thing which will escape is noncondensable gas. Open the port "wide open" until all pressure escapes. Slow down once the pressure is almost all gone, and replace the oil in the port so you can watch for the last of the pressure to escape and close the port before it takes on air. Once all the overpressure is gone, then power on the heater and try for another start and normal factory bleed procedure. Methyl formate has a very strong odor so the smallest amount of vapor will be easy to smell. There will be some smell, so don't be overly worried if you smell it during the pre-bleeding.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 15, 2021 1:41:43 GMT
Ok now i get it David, thanks for the clarification! i was hesitant to just open the port but it makes sense because i have been doing this pre-bleed process on and off for what seems like forever now with just little bubbles coming out. I will try to do that tomorrow and report back. thank you!! I have also watched lots of your other videos too on youtube. i have severl coke machines and am currently tearing down a westinghouse WE-6 for restoration. the original compressor and spiral coils get ice cold but plan to convert to air...If you know of anyone who wants to buy to compressor lmk..
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 15, 2021 13:57:25 GMT
Ok now i get it David, thanks for the clarification! i was hesitant to just open the port but it makes sense because i have been doing this pre-bleed process on and off for what seems like forever now with just little bubbles coming out. I will try to do that tomorrow and report back. thank you!! I have also watched lots of your other videos too on youtube. i have severl coke machines and am currently tearing down a westinghouse WE-6 for restoration. the original compressor and spiral coils get ice cold but plan to convert to air...If you know of anyone who wants to buy to compressor lmk.. Glad to help with the bleeding process info! As for the WE-6, why change the compressor? If it were mine, I would keep the compressor and simply install a cold-wall evaporator around the outside of the liner. That would be a lot better. These water-bath cabinets were never designed for a fan inside, and the top insulation and gaskets will allow massive air ingress if a fan is installed. If you do decide to change the compressor, I would be delighted to have it. It could be used to save another machine and keep it original; down the road.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 19, 2021 22:58:26 GMT
I let just about all of the NCG's out, added the oil and plugged in the heater. A few hours later I got my hot water pans ready and it will not turn on. Worked the controls back and forth more than a few times and nothing. This issue with it starting sometimes and not other times is fairly new. It used to turn on every time even if it shut off after less than a minute. The readings at the start relay also seem different than I remember. Currently the relay readings are: 60v at the compressor/heater black, 2.5v compressor white, 2.6v heater white & 2.7v compressor red. Am I now having a problem with the on controls? It still shows red in the window when turned to on.
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Post by ckfan on Apr 20, 2021 23:17:13 GMT
It should never show red in the window after turning the control off and back on. It sounds like there is an issue with the overload side of the control causing the contacts to not fully touch.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 21, 2021 1:46:55 GMT
It should never show red in the window after turning the control off and back on. It sounds like there is an issue with the overload side of the control causing the contacts to not fully touch. Hmm that's what I was thinking at least on the red showing.. ok I will have to take it all apart and see if its fixable... any suggestions? Thanks Dean
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Post by ckfan on Apr 21, 2021 10:15:56 GMT
Others here know more about the internals of the controls. It’s pretty straightforward though. Just be careful with the sensing tube. Don’t kink or break it as you bend it to get the control in and out. I also think that the wiring goes to a twist lock plug on it. Just push in, twist, and pull back out. Just like the plug on the relay providing power.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 21, 2021 13:10:44 GMT
Others here know more about the internals of the controls. It’s pretty straightforward though. Just be careful with the sensing tube. Don’t kink or break it as you bend it to get the control in and out. I also think that the wiring goes to a twist lock plug on it. Just push in, twist, and pull back out. Just like the plug on the relay providing power. Great thank you! Yes coldspaces shared this link on the control knob teardown/repair to hopefully it can be fixed...I will report back! monitortop.freeforums.net/thread/853/knob-control-tear-reassembly
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 21, 2021 14:06:59 GMT
Others here know more about the internals of the controls. It’s pretty straightforward though. Just be careful with the sensing tube. Don’t kink or break it as you bend it to get the control in and out. I also think that the wiring goes to a twist lock plug on it. Just push in, twist, and pull back out. Just like the plug on the relay providing power. Great thank you! Yes coldspaces shared this link on the control knob teardown/repair to hopefully it can be fixed...I will report back! monitortop.freeforums.net/thread/853/knob-control-tear-reassembly Hopefully you can see the problem and fix it. The overload device works by a heating coil around a solder-filled ratchet wheel. Too much current melts the solder, and the ratchet freewheels allowing the red flag to show and the contacts to separate. If the reset is done too soon before the solder re-solidifies, it's possible that the solder gets pushed out of the ratchet so it never grabs and holds again. Sometimes you can heat it up and get it to melt again and re-solidify and then it will work again. Several have sent me really destroyed controls lately that I couldn't fix. I used my spares and don't have any more complete ones. However, if the melting-alloy ratchet part is bad, I might have just that piece from another broken control.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 21, 2021 19:42:02 GMT
Great thank you! Yes coldspaces shared this link on the control knob teardown/repair to hopefully it can be fixed...I will report back! monitortop.freeforums.net/thread/853/knob-control-tear-reassembly Hopefully you can see the problem and fix it. The overload device works by a heating coil around a solder-filled ratchet wheel. Too much current melts the solder, and the ratchet freewheels allowing the red flag to show and the contacts to separate. If the reset is done too soon before the solder re-solidifies, it's possible that the solder gets pushed out of the ratchet so it never grabs and holds again. Sometimes you can heat it up and get it to melt again and re-solidify and then it will work again. Several have sent me really destroyed controls lately that I couldn't fix. I used my spares and don't have any more complete ones. However, if the melting-alloy ratchet part is bad, I might have just that piece from another broken control. Thanks David for the detailed explanation, I will take it apart and see what's going on. I do recall that I may have thought I was turning it to off and it think I switched it to defrost and but not sure why it went to overload. My guess is the watts were so high still before I let ALL of the NCG's out and it may have tripped too many times.
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 21, 2021 19:48:09 GMT
Ok now i get it David, thanks for the clarification! i was hesitant to just open the port but it makes sense because i have been doing this pre-bleed process on and off for what seems like forever now with just little bubbles coming out. I will try to do that tomorrow and report back. thank you!! I have also watched lots of your other videos too on youtube. i have severl coke machines and am currently tearing down a westinghouse WE-6 for restoration. the original compressor and spiral coils get ice cold but plan to convert to air...If you know of anyone who wants to buy to compressor lmk.. Glad to help with the bleeding process info! As for the WE-6, why change the compressor? If it were mine, I would keep the compressor and simply install a cold-wall evaporator around the outside of the liner. That would be a lot better. These water-bath cabinets were never designed for a fan inside, and the top insulation and gaskets will allow massive air ingress if a fan is installed. If you do decide to change the compressor, I would be delighted to have it. It could be used to save another machine and keep it original; down the road. That's a good idea, basically like what the slider coolers have? I have an ideal and a glasco 50gbv that both work perfectly! I will check with my resto guy out here in Colorado and see if he can install that option versus air. I do realize I will have to add gaskets to the lid and other areas to seal up the cooler as you mentioned they were not built to hold in cold air. I will get back to you on the compressor and coil. I think I will re-use the base plate for the new compressor if I end up going that route..
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peppers
5 Cubic Foot
Hello I am a new member as i just picked up a super clean 1933 GE CA-2-A16 Monitor Top!
Posts: 56
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Post by peppers on Apr 25, 2021 14:35:08 GMT
Update...Ok so i may be back to square one. I pulled out the control to take it apart and see why the overload was stuck. I read coldspaces thread on it and looked at all the pics. I noticed that when i turned it on and off the overload flag kept moving in and out when it shouldn't. I sent two videos off to Turbo and he noticed that the ratchet wheel at the bottom was slipping when i turned it on and off. See links below to all videos. I didn't really know what i did but i put a screwdriver down in there against the brass bar and it rest the overload and it seemed worked fine. Next I put the control back into the unit and began to get ready for start up and bleed out. Prior to all of this i did what Turbo suggested and opened up the bleed port full bore and let out all of the NCG's until the air slowed down and almost stopped. There were still some bubbles coming up through the oil but i wanted to be sure not to suck in any air and oil so i figured i could let the rest out when its running. I had the hot water trays ready and turned it on. It fired right up and the watts were at staying at about 280 ( Was really hoping they would be lower since i let all the gasses out) for the first 1.5 minutes the compressor dome was warming up, the condenser was uniform at about 68 degrees and i started the bleed process 3 minutes open with one min closed. I did this for two rounds, the bottom of the evaporator was 59 or 60 degrees and it was about 65 in my shop so it was starting to cool and it dropped 5 degrees after the 8 minutes. The watts were up to about 350 to 400 so i shut it off, dome temp was 88 degrees. I let it cool for about 10 minutes and turned it on again and this time the watts were right up to about 400. it ran for 3.5 minutes then shut off. I did notice that when i accidently bumped into the twist plug on the back the watts jumped to 600 then 1000 for a brief couple of seconds then back down to 400-450 range. I think the connection is not great but wondering if this may be contributing to the high wattage in general? It shut off about 20 seconds after i bumped the cord... the dome temp was 95 at that point. So my question is if i let out the majority of NCG's prior to a formal bleed why are the watts still so high and it is shutting down? Do i need to take some readings on the compressor, honestly i don't really understand all the motor winding talk when i read the threads but maybe the compressor is an issue? went back out this morning to see if the reset flag is showing since it tripped last night on the second run and it was about half way showing in the window. The unit did turn on and the watts were at about 250. I shut it off but my suspicion is that will eventually trip the overload again i will have to remove the control again to troubleshoot it. I don't really think i have solved the overload reset issue so looking for some guidance there as well on a more permanent fix. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSRmWsX9M_k Control overload not reset www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyw4_qN4vxU Control reset www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcrmVl2dGLQ&t=3s First start up and bleed www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzrarvULxAw&t=11s Second start up and then shutdown
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 25, 2021 20:47:16 GMT
Update...Ok so i may be back to square one. I pulled out the control to take it apart and see why the overload was stuck. I read coldspaces thread on it and looked at all the pics. I noticed that when i turned it on and off the overload flag kept moving in and out when it shouldn't. I sent two videos off to Turbo and he noticed that the ratchet wheel at the bottom was slipping when i turned it on and off. See links below to all videos. I didn't really know what i did but i put a screwdriver down in there against the brass bar and it rest the overload and it seemed worked fine. Next I put the control back into the unit and began to get ready for start up and bleed out. Prior to all of this i did what Turbo suggested and opened up the bleed port full bore and let out all of the NCG's until the air slowed down and almost stopped. There were still some bubbles coming up through the oil but i wanted to be sure not to suck in any air and oil so i figured i could let the rest out when its running. I had the hot water trays ready and turned it on. It fired right up and the watts were at staying at about 280 ( Was really hoping they would be lower since i let all the gasses out) for the first 1.5 minutes the compressor dome was warming up, the condenser was uniform at about 68 degrees and i started the bleed process 3 minutes open with one min closed. I did this for two rounds, the bottom of the evaporator was 59 or 60 degrees and it was about 65 in my shop so it was starting to cool and it dropped 5 degrees after the 8 minutes. The watts were up to about 350 to 400 so i shut it off, dome temp was 88 degrees. I let it cool for about 10 minutes and turned it on again and this time the watts were right up to about 400. it ran for 3.5 minutes then shut off. I did notice that when i accidently bumped into the twist plug on the back the watts jumped to 600 then 1000 for a brief couple of seconds then back down to 400-450 range. I think the connection is not great but wondering if this may be contributing to the high wattage in general? It shut off about 20 seconds after i bumped the cord... the dome temp was 95 at that point. So my question is if i let out the majority of NCG's prior to a formal bleed why are the watts still so high and it is shutting down? Do i need to take some readings on the compressor, honestly i don't really understand all the motor winding talk when i read the threads but maybe the compressor is an issue? went back out this morning to see if the reset flag is showing since it tripped last night on the second run and it was about half way showing in the window. The unit did turn on and the watts were at about 250. I shut it off but my suspicion is that will eventually trip the overload again i will have to remove the control again to troubleshoot it. I don't really think i have solved the overload reset issue so looking for some guidance there as well on a more permanent fix. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSRmWsX9M_k Control overload not reset www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyw4_qN4vxU Control reset www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcrmVl2dGLQ&t=3s First start up and bleed www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzrarvULxAw&t=11s Second start up and then shutdown Dean, sometimes the CA compressors can suffer some degree of mechanical damage from NCG buildup over the years. It seems that they sometimes become tight and try to seize up when warm; due to an abnormal wear pattern or some type of buildup on the moving parts. I've found it to be about a 50/50 shot with them surviving this condition. If they do survive it, the key to making that happen is to release the heavy extreme NCG buildup (which you have done it seems); and then keep trying and keep running it; but let it cool off between runs if it stalls. If it is going to survive, it will eventually establish a stable wear pattern and stop trying to seize up when it gets hot. The motors in these don't have a large amount of power; and it only takes a little extra drag to slow the motor down. These were supposedly good for 90 to 130V supply when everything was new and in good condition. Of course, the motor will be able to carry more load before losing speed and bogging down, when the voltage is higher. If you have a variac, you can use that to provide a solid 130V while the unit is running. This will help the motor to stay running and not lose speed. Once it loses speed to a certain point, the start-relay kicks in again and everything trips off. Sometimes when this is happening, I have found it helpful to bleed more aggressively when I notice the machine sounding like it is about to bog down. This may be at the cost of some refrigerant but it seems to have saved a few which would not continue running no matter what; at other times.
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