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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 19, 2018 11:14:32 GMT
I got my R123 today. I plan on trying it out in the CA this weekend to see how it does before going the cap tube conversion route. The R123 came in a drum and I’ve never opened up one of these drums before. After reading the labels on the drum. It seems I need a valve for it. And I’m not really sure what kind I should get for it. Here are few pics of it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated One of the stickers says to use a 3/4 x 4" nipple, so that suggests it's just a 3/4" NPT thread on the drum and tightening it is supposed to break the seal. That being said, I don't really know - that's just an educated guess. I believe the fittings on the standard DOT recovery cylinders are 3/4 NPT as well. That being the case, I'd recommend a metal (brass or steel) in order to break through the seal, if that is how it works. I'd also be concerned about the compatibility of the plastics in some with the R123, favoring metal for that reason as well. So what I would do, merely out of personal preference, is get something like a 3/4 male x 1/8" female NPT adapter, then a 1/8" F x M ball valve (much cheaper than 3/4), then a 1/8" NPT to 1/4 SAE flare fitting adapter, with loctite 567 on the threads. Or something like that. The general idea would be to get from 3/4 NPT to a 1/4 SAE flare fitting, with a valve somewhere in between. That is, if the drum threads are truly 3/4" NPT. \ This is cool. I don't think I was aware that you'd ordered a drum. The drum itself looks huge. For 15 lbs, is it just partially filled? Hi birkie Thanks for all that info. I was just reading trough the post for cap tube conversion and followed the link for R123 posted In there. From Reading through that. It looks like I could just unscrew the cap on the drum and then screw in a peace of pipe to pour out what I need and just replace the cap after I’m done. I feel like I’m lost in a dark room feeling my way round on some of this stuff yet. Lol. Yes I got a drum. Lol. It was the smallest amount I could find. It looks bigger in the pics than it is. I’d say it’s a little under half full ? It was way more than I wanted and will probably ever need but it does leave room for any possible mistakes I may make in the near future. Here’s a pic of it in front of the CA. It gives a better comparison. When I’m done with this project I’m not really sure where I’ll keep the extra lol. I really don’t think I’m going to go through 15lbs of this stuff anytime soon.
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Post by birkie on Sept 19, 2018 12:02:41 GMT
I was just reading trough the post for cap tube conversion and followed the link for R123 posted In there. From Reading through that. It looks like I could just unscrew the cap on the drum and then screw in a peace of pipe to pour out what I need and just replace the cap after I’m done. I feel like I’m lost in a dark room feeling my way round on some of this stuff yet. Lol. Trust in yourself, and do what you're comfortable with. By the way, I just located some instructions in a safety data sheetRecommended Opening Procedure To open container, follow these procedures to avoid loss and contamination of the product. 1. Tear off protective cap over large bun opening. 2. Carefully remove the ¾ inch plug from the center of the large bung. DO NOT puncture the inner seal. 3. Insert convenient length ¾ inch nipple fitted with a closed valve. As nipple is inserted, the inner seal is broken and container is ready to unload through valve So it seems definitely like 3/4 NPT. Any hardware store should have a short length of nipple that can be used. It looks like the last few threads of travel will break the seal as you tighten it with the pipe wrench. You can be the supplier of R123 for the folks in the mid-atlantic region that want to hop on the CA refrigerant conversion train
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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 19, 2018 18:49:18 GMT
Oh man. I didn’t think of looking up the safety data sheet. ( thunk myself in the for head) Thanks for find that and posting it. Looks like I’ll be making a trip to Lowe’s or Home Depot. Just wouldn’t be a project with out a visit to one or the other lol
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Post by Travis on Sept 20, 2018 1:11:25 GMT
It's great that you're trying this out. I was inspired by all the discussion of MF and other substitutes and grabbed a cylinder of R11 for future use.
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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 20, 2018 2:00:39 GMT
It's great that you're trying this out. I was inspired by all the discussion of MF and other substitutes and grabbed a cylinder of R11 for future use. I considered R11 but the R123 seemed to be a better deal. Although having to buy that amount did hurt the old wallet a bit. I’m really hoping to get good results. Also hoping to luck out and not have to do a cap conversion. Fingers crossed ! Lol.
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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 22, 2018 2:12:22 GMT
Hi everyone Last night I changed the CA over to R123. I think the frost line is little high. It has a little over 1.6 L in it. So maybe I went over board with charge haha. I kept bumping the charged a little at a time to see if the run times would change. Sorry that the pictures are a little dark. My phone just does not like taking evaporator pics. The run times are still crappy. 4 to 5 on and 6 to 7 off. Today has been a warm day though. The house has been in the upper 80’s for the most part. It’s finally down to 82f as I’m writing this. ( took the A/C ‘s out of the windows to early this year ). The run amps are kinda high I think. 2.82 amp and 191 watts. According to the kilowatt meter. Before the watts were lower in the 130’s to 160’s. I also noticed that though the machine had a some what vibration or hum sound to it before changing it over to R123 and it seems more noticeable now. But with that said it does not rattle hardly at all. You have to really Listen to hear it. It occasionally sounds like a water fall ? But that seems to go away after the evap gets down in the teens and the box temp starts to come down. When First starting it up the evap almost immediately starts to get cold and frost up. Other than the vibration hum sound you can hardly tell it’s running. So sadly things still point to possible float issues. I think I may put a “pin” in this project for a wile. I had reached out to Mike/100yearoldfridge and asked if He would be interested in helping with a cap tube conversion after he gets all settled back in after moving back to PA. And he said he was. So figure instead of trying to figure how do the soldering and all that fun stuff on my own. It would probably be better to wait when there is someone who is experienced that’s willing to help out. Because the whole point is not only learn something new but to bring this wonderful old machine back to its former glory as it should be ! 😁 oh and to keep my sodas and occasional beer cold ! Lol 😜 I do have to say it was interesting to see how the R123 behaves in the CA. It’s very similar to MF but yet it’s different. They smell a lot alike too. Oh ! Friendly FYI to anyone who’s been following this thread and may consider buying that 15lb of R123 on eBay. My drum had no inner seals. As indicated on the drum labeling ... Soon as I unscrewed the cap a little I got gas. I quickly closed it and then cooled it down some in my old newer Frigidaire fridge aka Electrolux. ( nice to know it still has a purpose lol ). But then when I opened the cap again it pulled air in. Grr. I tried not to get it to cold. But guess I did. I really hope it’s not contaminated now. But other than that I have no complaints. The eBay seller was friendly when I had asked a few questions and shipped out with in a day of cleared payment.
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Post by birkie on Sept 22, 2018 10:44:01 GMT
That was fast! Sorry it seems to confirm a bad float, though I've never run the numbers for CA refrigerants, but the characteristics of individual refrigerants can affect the watts and capacity significantly. So your higher wattage might be normal. That being said, I too suspect it is overcharged. If you have the time to spare, i'd love to see a video of it running (and the evaporator sounds). Glad you got in touch with 100yearfridge. By the way, what did you do to empty it of the Methyl Formate?
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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 22, 2018 12:18:42 GMT
I had some PTO time to use up. So I took thusrday off. figured it would give me 4 days in row to mess around with things and monitor its performance . When I have my mind set on things I don’t waist much time lol. I’ll get you a video later on today when I have a chance. Also I forgot to mention in my last post. The evap temp is able to go down to 1F according to the temp probe on my multi meter. However I’m not totally sure how accurate that reading is. The warmest temp I can get with the infrared thermometer was -5 and it’s usually pretty accurate when there is frost on the evaporator so there maybe some improvement going on. If let it run none stop for say 45 min, The infrared will give readings as low as -10F to -12. If that’s even close to being correct... then wow! is all I have to say lol But my temp probe on the multimeter stays at 1F. I know when I did the test before with MF. They both said around 0.1F. So maybe my multimeter is having issues.
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 22, 2018 13:16:23 GMT
I had some PTO time to use up. So I took thusrday off. figured it would give me 4 days in row to mess around with things and monitor its performance . When I have my mind set on things I don’t waist much time lol. I’ll get you a video later on today when I have a chance. Also I forgot to mention in my last post. The evap temp is able to go down to 1F according to the temp probe on my multi meter. However I’m not totally sure how accurate that reading is. The warmest temp I can get with the infrared thermometer was -5 and it’s usually pretty accurate when there is frost on the evaporator so there maybe some improvement going on. If let it run none stop for say 45 min, The infrared will give readings as low as -10F to -12. If that’s even close to being correct... then wow! is all I have to say lol But my temp probe on the multimeter stays at 1F. I know when I did the test before with MF. They both said around 0.1F. So maybe my multimeter is having issues. Hi AJ. Sorry I haven't been able to contribute more to this thread! Work got really busy and the place I was working was a ship with poor internet.
If you're using a multimeter with a temperature sensor probe, you might want to check the temperature probe and meter's measurement range. I'm not sure exactly how these translate resistance to temperature; and there may be limitations. I believe the Fluke ones go to -40°F but not exactly sure.
There is one factor that has to be considered with low pressure refrigerants. There is a limit to how low you can feasibly get the evaporator temperature to. The temperature pressure chart for R123 shows that at 0°F it is operating at 26 inches mercury vacuum. There is very little pressure available to move the evaporated gas from the evaporator to the compressor at this low of a pressure. There will be an equilibrium point where the heat load boils off the refrigerant at a rate where the compressor can't produce a pressure any lower. Also, if I remember, the CA has a check valve which would have further pressure drop between the evaporator and compressor intake.
I don't know at what point this equilibrium would be reached, and it would depend on many factors.
What I do want to say, however, is that GE didn't intend for this to cool much below 10°F. The CA service manual tells us that the control should cycle off at 10 to 13°F depending on model. See if your readings tend to agree with this:
In reading the manual starting on page 20, they go over some points which can cause high duty cycle of operation, and it doesn't mention the float. It only mentions the float as a cause of poor cooling; which you don't seem to have.
As for the increased power demand, I believe that would be expected; considering R123 operates at a slightly higher pressure than methyl formate; and if I remember correctly it is far more dense. The up side to this is, the unit should have more cooling power, as well.
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Post by solarmike on Sept 22, 2018 21:00:27 GMT
What I do want to say, however, is that GE didn't intend for this to cool much below 10°F. The CA service manual tells us that the control should cycle off at 10 to 13°F depending on model. See if your readings tend to agree with this:
That is a great chart, I was wondering if there is a chart like that for a FEA? I looked in the FEA section and I didn't see one..
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 22, 2018 21:08:53 GMT
What I do want to say, however, is that GE didn't intend for this to cool much below 10°F. The CA service manual tells us that the control should cycle off at 10 to 13°F depending on model. See if your readings tend to agree with this: That is a great chart, I was wondering if there is a chart like that for a FEA? I looked in the FEA section and I didn't see one..
Mike, I don't think anyone has yet posted a manual for the FEA machines. That needs to be done! If I had one I would scan and post it.
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Post by birkie on Sept 23, 2018 12:40:52 GMT
The infrared will give readings as low as -10F to -12. If that’s even close to being correct... then wow! is all I have to say lol But my temp probe on the multimeter stays at 1F. While I don't have firsthand experience with the CA, I do recall that 0-1F seems to be what these machines are capable of pulling down to. If it really is -10F to -15F, then the cabinet air temps must be COLD (in the 20s). Is that the case? Cabinet temps can be a good check on evaporator temps. If it's in the low 30s, that would tend to rule out the very cold infrared readings, unless the insulation in the cabinet is uniquely terrible. Also, on page 36 of the manual they have some more detailed specs. It looks like one of the differences between the A and B machines is that the form B machines run slightly colder evap temps. Here is some data from that page, with the headings arranged for clarity: It's a bit confusing to read, but it looks a probe frozen to the bottom of the evap in a CA1 form B like yours should cycle between 0-10F, at the coldest setting. I was wondering if there is a chart like that for a FEA? I looked in the FEA section and I didn't see one.. I've looked hard, and haven't found a service manual for the FEAs, or a number of the later machines. I'm almost convinced that GE viewed their R12 machines as mainstream enough that their operation was obvious, and didn't need thorough and detailed manuals like the DR, CA, and CK.
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Post by solarmike on Sept 23, 2018 13:09:45 GMT
Thank you that makes sense... I will check to see what the temp of other fridges of that time were....
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Post by ajc31980 on Sept 23, 2018 21:18:31 GMT
Hi everyone! Sorry for the delayed reply I ended up having company yesterday that pulled me away from my project for a wile. Ended up being out of the house all day and most of the night. I had chance to glance through the comments a little wile I was out but couldn’t really reply. I just don’t like having my nose in my phone the whole time out with friends . Though I just had to to look every time I got not a notification lol. So when I got back last night I found that the box temp had dropped to 28F when checking the evap with the IR thermometer it was still showing a temp of -10 and -7 in some spots. (Dial set on 5) But my temp probe was still showing a temp of 1F. frozen to the bottom of the cooling unit. I also tried clipping it where the thermostat-probe is attached the evap and got the same readings. So from the advice I received in the comments ( thank you ! 😁) I decided to recalibrate the thermostat based on the IR readings. And let it run over night and a good part of today with out opening the door at all. I’m happy if not ecstatic! With the results! With dial set on 5. It’s shuts off when the evap temp is at 9/10 F and on at 20/21 F. The box is temp is roughly 35F. On time is 3 min and off time is 9min. I’m not sure at what point what went out of calibration first. My temp probe or the the thermostat on the CA. When I started this project my temp probe and IR would give readings very close to each other. But I stopped using the IR cause I just kinda forgot about it. ( stupid me ) Also it seemed in the beginning that the thermostat was pretty close to what the manual states. So I don’t know if it was from me turning the dial up and down wile trying to figure different things out ?. Figure it’s 84 years old and probably wasn’t ever turned up and down as much as it has been wile I’ve been working on things. Possibly it knocked it out calibrations ? I intend on getting a better temp probe so can get a better reading of what the temperatures really are. This has definitely turned out to be a weird series of events that appears to have run me in circles a little bit. But at least things are starting to look up ! 😁 Here’s a video of how it sounds Running R123! As I’ve mentioned before my phone tends to make things sound louder then they really are. I payed this back on my laptop and TV and it sounds pretty much like it does in real life. But on my phone it sounds much louder. youtu.be/f7_wv1Sn6v8
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 23, 2018 21:28:19 GMT
Hi everyone! Sorry for the delayed reply I ended up having company yesterday that pulled me away from my project for a wile. Ended up being out of the house all day and most of the night. I had chance to glance through the comments a little wile I was out but couldn’t really reply. I just don’t like having my nose in my phone the whole time out with friends . Though I just had to to look every time I got not a notification lol. So when I got back last night I found that the box temp had dropped to 28F when checking the evap with the IR thermometer it was still showing a temp of -10 and -7 in some spots. (Dial set on 5) But my temp probe was still showing a temp of 1F. frozen to the bottom of the cooling unit. I also tried clipping it where the thermostat-probe is attached the evap and got the same readings. So from the advice I received in the comments ( thank you ! 😁) I decided to recalibrate the thermostat based on the IR readings. And let it run over night and a good part of today with out opening the door at all. I’m happy if not ecstatic! With the results! With dial set on 5. It’s shuts off when the evap temp is at 9/10 F and on at 20/21 F. The box is temp is roughly 35F. On time is 3 min and off time is 9min. I’m not sure at what point what went out of calibration first. My temp probe or the the thermostat on the CA. When I started this project my temp probe and IR would give readings very close to each other. But I stopped using the IR cause I just kinda forgot about it. ( stupid me ) Also it seemed in the beginning that the thermostat was pretty close to what the manual states. So I don’t know if it was from me turning the dial up and down wile trying to figure different things out ?. Figure it’s 84 years old and probably wasn’t ever turned up and down as much as it has been wile I’ve been working on things. Possibly it knocked it out calibrations ? I intend on getting a better temp probe so can get a better reading of what the temperatures really are. This has definitely turned out to be a weird series of events that appears to have run me in circles a little bit. But at least things are starting to look up ! 😁 Here’s a video of how it sounds Running R123! As I’ve mentioned before my phone tends to make things sound louder then they really are. I payed this back on my laptop and TV and it sounds pretty much like it does in real life. But on my phone it sounds much louder. youtu.be/f7_wv1Sn6v8 Hi AJ. Really happy that she's working so much better for you now!
Those temp probes are always suspect in my opinion. They seem as if they might not be all that waterproof, as well. That could have had some effect on the calibration of the probe.
When I get home this evening, I'll listen to your video! Can't wait to hear it.
I thought I was the only one who feels that it's rude to stay glued to a "device" while there is a real, live person to interact with! Glad I'm not the only one who has this old-school and very courteous attitude!
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