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Post by joneske on May 10, 2018 19:24:29 GMT
It happens regularly. I am holding on to a sliver of hope that it is something minor like that. Mike is coming over this weekend to help me troubleshoot it. So just curious, it starts most of the time; but "regularly" (maybe one in 5 starts) it will be stalled and trip? I probably am not explaining it correctly. It starts, then runs until the overload heats up and trips it off. I have only tried this three times as I don't want to risk damaging it any further until I have a chance to troubleshoot it more. I shot a video the last time I started it. I apoplogize for leaving my phone on for several seconds after I shut it down. drive.google.com/open?id=1mSlBMjlGesCSf0YX9TbdW7UaiPaHV7C3 |
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Post by turbokinetic on May 10, 2018 19:31:40 GMT
So just curious, it starts most of the time; but "regularly" (maybe one in 5 starts) it will be stalled and trip? I probably am not explaining it correctly. It starts, then runs until the overload heats up and trips it off. I have only tried this three times as I don't want to risk damaging it any further until I have a chance to troubleshoot it more. I shot a video the last time I started it. I apoplogize for leaving my phone on for several seconds after I shut it down. drive.google.com/open?id=1mSlBMjlGesCSf0YX9TbdW7UaiPaHV7C3Your description makes sense to me. I want to see (and listen to) the video but it is seeming not to work. Will keep trying.
If this is happening, you really need to hook up a current meter to see how many amps the motor is drawing. It could be that the start contact is stuck and the start winding is not disengaging.
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Post by joneske on May 10, 2018 19:38:56 GMT
I probably am not explaining it correctly. It starts, then runs until the overload heats up and trips it off. I have only tried this three times as I don't want to risk damaging it any further until I have a chance to troubleshoot it more. I shot a video the last time I started it. I apoplogize for leaving my phone on for several seconds after I shut it down. drive.google.com/open?id=1mSlBMjlGesCSf0YX9TbdW7UaiPaHV7C3Your description makes sense to me. I want to see (and listen to) the video but it is seeming not to work. Will keep trying.
If this is happening, you really need to hook up a current meter to see how many amps the motor is drawing. It could be that the start contact is stuck and the start winding is not disengaging.
I reloaded it. Let me know if it still won't work.
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Post by turbokinetic on May 10, 2018 19:43:37 GMT
Your description makes sense to me. I want to see (and listen to) the video but it is seeming not to work. Will keep trying.
If this is happening, you really need to hook up a current meter to see how many amps the motor is drawing. It could be that the start contact is stuck and the start winding is not disengaging.
I reloaded it. Let me know if it still won't work.
Video working!
It sounds good in that video, and you can obviously see the start contacts opening back up. Really need to see motor current to troubleshoot it.
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Post by joneske on May 10, 2018 19:53:00 GMT
Thanks. I won't have a chance to get to it till this weekend. I'll post what I find out.
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Post by turbokinetic on May 10, 2018 20:03:32 GMT
Thanks. I won't have a chance to get to it till this weekend. I'll post what I find out. Sounds good. Hope to hear it is something simple! |
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Post by joneske on May 10, 2018 20:54:19 GMT
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Post by turbokinetic on May 10, 2018 21:14:32 GMT
Oh wow - the start contact is definitely staying closed, or trying to re-close.
There are several reasons for this. One would be that the start relay is out of adjustment, causing the relay armature to NOT fall back down. This is what you hope for!
I would take a PLASTIC, NON-CONDUCTIVE item, such as a ballpoint pen - and manually press the start contact arm down, separating the contacts. Do this as soon as possible just after the motor starts running. If the arm stays down after you do this, see if the motor will continue running without tripping. If the arm immediately rises back up, that would indicate the motor current is very high and it is actuating the relay again. If the arm stays down and everything seems healthy, then you probably just have relay problems!
I would also again suggest checking the motor current draw, as well as the motor's winding resistance and insulation resistance to ground.
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Post by elec573 on May 11, 2018 5:24:01 GMT
I would agree the start winding are not being disingaged . This seems like a control issue. But I would check the resistance reading of moter first .
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Post by birkie on May 11, 2018 15:36:00 GMT
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Post by turbokinetic on May 11, 2018 15:38:48 GMT
You got a very good point there. There's definitely a difference. Hopefully it is just because the relay isn't providing a good, solid current to the start winding in its degraded state.
EDIT: One thing I forgot to add; any time there are chattering / arcing contacts, it is harmful because this causes harsh voltage spikes when the faulty circuit is broken and re-established again and again. This sort of voltage spike is the nature of the beast, so to speak. However, when it happens hundreds of times in a second instead of once per start, there is bound to be some extra stress on the components.
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Post by birkie on May 11, 2018 16:19:28 GMT
]EDIT: One thing I forgot to add; any time there are chattering / arcing contacts, it is harmful because this causes harsh voltage spikes when the faulty circuit is broken and re-established again and again. This sort of voltage spike is the nature of the beast, so to speak. However, when it happens hundreds of times in a second instead of once per start, there is bound to be some extra stress on the components. This is actually normal for the tall DR controls, they all do it. A laminated core hangs from the armature through the center of the start coil. By gravity, it is normally in the low "start contacts open" position. The upward force induced by the run coil (making it essentially a solenoid) pushes the iron core up when the machine starts. It merely fights gravity until the current through the run windings (and therefore the coil) drops enough for gravity to win and cause the armature to sink back down. It is a bit imprecise and bouncy. The later type E short controls had an rocking armature that had two coils tugging on either end - the run coil, and a shunt coil. With the machine off, the armature was weighted so that it rests on the "run" coil, in the "start contacts closed" position. When powered up, both coils tug at the armature, but the run coil is stronger. Once up to speed, the current through the run coil drops enough to make the armature pivot towards the shunt coil, opening the start contacts. To me, it looks like it was specifically designed to this way avoid the bouncing. Both controls are fun to watch in action for different reasons. |
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Post by turbokinetic on May 11, 2018 20:47:43 GMT
]EDIT: One thing I forgot to add; any time there are chattering / arcing contacts, it is harmful because this causes harsh voltage spikes when the faulty circuit is broken and re-established again and again. This sort of voltage spike is the nature of the beast, so to speak. However, when it happens hundreds of times in a second instead of once per start, there is bound to be some extra stress on the components. This is actually normal for the tall DR controls, they all do it. ....... Both controls are fun to watch in action for different reasons. Definitely! Thanks for the description, as well.
That's yet another reason not to like the new PTC start devices.... they are just so undramatic and boring LOL!
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Post by turbokinetic on May 13, 2018 2:34:08 GMT
It happens regularly. I am holding on to a sliver of hope that it is something minor like that. Mike is coming over this weekend to help me troubleshoot it.
Hope you guys are having some success with the troubleshooting! Nervously hoping for a positive outcome! I looked back over your thread and found the winding resisance info from when you first started working on this unit. If the start relay doesn't seem to offer any solution, possibly you can compare the present resistance to what it had when it was running normally. That could rule out or confirm a winding failure.
I'm not an expert on these machines, so this may be way off base - but could a stuck float cause the motor to be overloaded severely to this point?
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Post by joneske on May 14, 2018 14:44:31 GMT
We took readings yesterday. And the news was not great. Start to common was 4.2, start to run 7.1 and common to run 3.2, which was nearly identical to my first readings, but this time the start read 8 ohms to ground. It’s draws 610 watts when first started, and drops to 580 before tripping off.
The wiring was somewhat compromised back when I removed the control to replace the back. I had attempted a repair using heat shrink, but it is possible the damage is a little deeper. I am going to try and dig out the grommet and see if that is a potential source, and hope it is not something more serious.
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