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Post by oldfashion on Aug 4, 2023 13:43:30 GMT
Hi guys, quite a time since my last post. I just bought an (realy cheap) vintage Frigidaire (could not refuse myself) and I was pretty suprised that it is kind of 'germanised'. From the outside (no photo from inside of the compressor compartment jet) I would say pre 1930. Can anyone provide more information about the age or type? For european area quite rare find, I think. I requestet an photo from the compressor, but chances are good that it has the old equipment still inside. Technical condition is another question. I will pick up that beauty in about two weeks in the east of Germany.
Regards Ansgar
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 5, 2023 1:07:10 GMT
Hi Ansgar! You are very fortunate to have found that in Germany! That would appear to be a 1930 or 1931 model, possibly a W-4. It has the cable-operated cold-control. The condenser shown in the pictures is the original one. The suspension springs also appear to be original. It seems quite possible that it is original. Hopefully they will open the front panel and show the compressor.
This would be a belt-driven SO2 unit. It would have a Delco repulsion-induction motor.
I have rebuilt several of these. They are one of my favorites! I have one similar in my home kitchen for icewater, soft drinks and beer.
Sincerely,
David
EDIT: Some videos on a similar model... https://youtu.be/Bmu3aUDVacg
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 5, 2023 4:41:36 GMT
Thanks, David. So from 1930/31? Okay, fine. We'll see. Because of your vids about the beld-driven units I was sensitive to look for older non-hermetic units. I also was able to buy oldstyle sight glasses similar to yours (without the moisture indicator) that you build in one of your belt units. Very helpfull because of the remaining permanent slight losses at the compressor shaft. Here two additional pics why I wrote 'germanised'. Signet plate and instructions are in german language. Maybe they differ from the english ones. They are from the sales post. Later I can provide better resolution. Do you know the original material of the dropping pan? I bought an glas pan with Frigidiare logo from an old lady, but I don't know if it was indended as a dropping pan or for food. Her husband sold the units in Germany in the 30ties. The fridge was gone long time ago, but she used the pan as serving dish. So it survived. She has to wind up her household for moving to an nursed home and searched for someone who would take care of that remebering item of lucky days of her former live. So the message is: You own nothing in your live. You only preserve things for the next owner ... (but in the meantime you can have fun with the things - my conclusion). Thans for the link. I'll watch it attentively.
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 5, 2023 10:29:59 GMT
Very interesting! Never seen a German language Frigidaire logo, nor instructions decal.
I tend to feel the same way, that we take care of things like this for future generations of people.
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 16, 2023 8:31:53 GMT
I'm very delighted with my pick up yesterday cause it's all original :-)) Surprisingly turns out to be an early R12 version(!) and no filter dryer (!!). Compressor is painted in light grey. Also, as the catalog states, this unit has casters not legs. So would be interesting to see the evaporator floating regulation inside. If it has some adaptations to R12 it can be easyier to use R134a or R152a possibly? No Delco motor, it has a swedish Century from England. The Edison fuse is blown. I've no model type information found. So I've to measure the cabinet dimensions. From catalog it can be an W4 oder W3. Also intresting is the way they fabricated the door gasket. Seams to be a natural rubber (caoutchouc ?) tape with a round filling inside, then stitched up and stapled in. Maybe this is the way to produce suitable new gaskets also for other brands. I've seen this method in old harmoniums. They use felt and wool filling. Those gaskets lasted decades and can easily adapetd to any form from square to round. Here some shots, hope I can show you something new: www.flickr.com/photos/182104126@N04/albums/72177720310517451 |
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 16, 2023 13:26:16 GMT
I'm very delighted with my pick up yesterday cause it's all original :-)) Surprisingly turns out to be an early R12 version(!) and no filter dryer (!!). Compressor is painted in light grey. Also, as the catalog states, this unit has casters not legs. So would be interesting to see the evaporator floating regulation inside. If it has some adaptations to R12 it can be easyier to use R134a or R152a possibly? No Delco motor, it has a swedish Century from England. The Edison fuse is blown. I've no model type information found. So I've to measure the cabinet dimensions. From catalog it can be an W4 oder W3. Also intresting is the way they fabricated the door gasket. Seams to be a natural rubber (caoutchouc ?) tape with a round filling inside, then stitched up and stapled in. Maybe this is the way to produce suitable new gaskets also for other brands. I've seen this method in old harmoniums. They use felt and wool filling. Those gaskets lasted decades and can easily adapetd to any form from square to round. Here some shots, hope I can show you something new: www.flickr.com/photos/182104126@N04/albums/72177720310517451What a nice finding! The F-12 versions of these are very uncommon. I am reasonably sure they are rebuilt units which Frigidaire produced during the wartime years. Due to material shortages, many components were reconditioned. Yours looks to be in great shape, too. It will be interesting to see what caused the fuse failure. Hopefully it is simple to fix. Those old gaskets do hold up well. It would be easy to make an original reproduction, more than likely. I prefer to use modern adhesive gaskets for mine, since they are convenient. However recreating that design would be a lot more period-correct. The F-12 float chambers are set for the density of Freon-12 as opposed to SO2. You may be able to use R134A from a density standpoint, but the operating pressure will be higher than it should be for that compressor. Thanks for the pictures! |
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 16, 2023 16:20:51 GMT
I'm little confused. If it is a wartime production, why shows it German language? I think something doesn't fits together. War-induced shortages may have appered after US was involed in WW2. So why would the USA deliver luxury-goods to an enemy? I think production is before this point. My theory is, that they over produced the 1931-style cabinets and searched for markets after the appearnce of the new-style 1933 exhibition modell everybody wants to have. So they "brightened the bride" with new refrigerant type and sold the oldstyle version to the Germans. The new R12 maybe was very wellcomed to get rid of the use of SO2. It maybe was a strong selling argument here. As I know, R12 became popular here after war. New refrigerants were "hightec" in Europe at that time.
And there's another point I can't resolve: I asked the seller about the history of this machine. He told me that it probably was used in a neareby plant director's manison. They prodced big ship motors and turbines. So a quite well situated household. Dresden (the pick up location) was part of former GDR. And after war the political system dont't liked the comercialised products especillay from US. So for pre wartime production (as far as US concerned) these machines can be shiped to Europe and here they were completed with appropriate motors. So I think it's not a refurbished production after war.
In sum probably a very rare version for Frigidaire as also for flooded-evaporator-type machines in common.
For the pressore problem with the compressor: Do you have technical information about the compressor types? Question is how much over-stress could they handle? Because of the density 152a is not an option in this case. The problem is that 134a is also about to go off market in Europe because of slight global warming potential (no comment on that, I hate it). Maybe it is a former SO2 compressor? Can you identify that?
Meanwhile I tried to rotate the motor and compressor by hand. Turned out that the shaft is leaky. You can hear remaining gas escaping. I also tried to remove the totaly woren-out belt. Quite difficult. There's not enough space between condenser fins and the shaft nut. Did you have problems with that at your machnies or is it as the compressor is special in my unit? I expected to be able to change the belt easilier (without demout anything) because it have to be changed from time to time.
Did you see those R12-machines in US before?
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 16, 2023 16:59:53 GMT
I'm little confused. If it is a wartime production, why shows it German language? I think something doesn't fits together. War-induced shortages may have appered after US was involed in WW2. So why would the USA deliver luxury-goods to an enemy? I think production is before this point. My theory is, that they over produced the 1931-style cabinets and searched for markets after the appearnce of the new-style 1933 exhibition modell everybody wants to have. So they "brightened the bride" with new refrigerant type and sold the oldstyle version to the Germans. The new R12 maybe was very wellcomed to get rid of the use of SO2. It maybe was a strong selling argument here. As I know, R12 became popular here after war. New refrigerants were "hightec" in Europe at that time. And there's another point I can't resolve: I asked the seller about the history of this machine. He told me that it probably was used in a neareby plant director's manison. They prodced big ship motors and turbines. So a quite well situated household. Dresden (the pick up location) was part of former GDR. And after war the political system dont't liked the comercialised products especillay from US. So for pre wartime production (as far as US concerned) these machines can be shiped to Europe and here they were completed with appropriate motors. So I think it's not a refurbished production after war. In sum probably a very rare version for Frigidaire as also for flooded-evaporator-type machines in common. For the pressore problem with the compressor: Do you have technical information about the compressor types? Question is how much over-stress could they handle? Because of the density 152a is not an option in this case. The problem is that 134a is also about to go off market in Europe because of slight global warming potential (no comment on that, I hate it). Maybe it is a former SO2 compressor? Can you identify that? Meanwhile I tried to rotate the motor and compressor by hand. Turned out that the shaft is leaky. You can hear remaining gas escaping. I also tried to remove the totaly woren-out belt. Quite difficult. There's not enough space between condenser fins and the shaft nut. Did you have problems with that at your machnies or is it as the compressor is special in my unit? I expected to be able to change the belt easilier (without demout anything) because it have to be changed from time to time. Did you see those R12-machines in US before? I'm pretty sure your Frigidaire cabinet was made for sale in Germany in the 1930's. It was originally an SO2 model. Sometime later than that (late 40's?) the original SO2 system failed. At that time, Frigidaire offered a replacement system designed for F-12. I don't have any specific technical data on the compressors. However, I do know that they are very over-engineered. The SO2 compressor has a longer stroke versus the F-12 unit for the lower pressure / higher volume usage. The SO2 compressors work well with R152A which is a higher pressure refrigerant. They are still within their engineering margin. I do have one F-12 Frigidaire similar to yours. Unfortunately mine was in extremely poor condition. The compressor had been run with low oil for a long time and had taken significant damage. You're right about the belt being difficult to remove. There is little clearance with the condenser. Also the motor mount bushings may have perished, and allowed the motor to move closer to the condenser. If your seal leaked when you rotated the shaft, it may have suffered some corrosion. You may be able to lap the seal faces and restore it. You can use R152A. It will work fine, but you will have to make modifications to the float system due to the density difference. I've done several and all have worked very well. You'll need to add a spring to take about half the force from the float; and also add an oil return cup and wick. I've documented it several times in videos. |
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 16, 2023 17:09:42 GMT
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 16, 2023 17:57:55 GMT
Hello David, many thanks for the service manual scan. A ritch resource of information. Will be helpfull. I'll keep you updated on that project.
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 16, 2023 18:10:50 GMT
Hello David, many thanks for the service manual scan. A ritch resource of information. Will be helpfull. I'll keep you updated on that project. Very happy to help! Have you seen my evaporator modification videos? If not here is one of them: https://youtu.be/hD75-UIVlWE |
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 18, 2023 4:33:28 GMT
Here a pic of the glas pan I got from the old lady. I wrote about a meter upstream. Unfortunately the depth does not fit completely. There's a slight contact with the door when closing. The door can be closed, but I don't like it. The inner sheet metal of the door will be sligtly pressed in every time. Seams to be an older version or it fits into the next bigger size cabinet. From the dimensions mine could be the W-3. In catalog the dripping pans doesn't have the side ripples, but sometimes the catalogs don't show the latest modifications on the interior (at least today).  How do you call the material that is used as sound absorber in the compressor compartment? The pice under the machine is soaked with oil (hope the compresser is not damaged). I think I've to replace it. It layed freely on the rost. Not fixed to the cabinet. Do you know this was mounted when it was new? It is only half the size of the rost. I suppose to enable enough airflow to the underside.  |
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 18, 2023 4:47:59 GMT
Your boiler mentioned me to a cathedral - a cathedral of cold:  |
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 18, 2023 13:03:47 GMT
You made me laugh a little with the Cathedral of Cold! But now I see it too.
As for the sound absorber, that is made of particle board. It is pressed wood fiber. They would set that only under the compressor and motor. Just to catch drips and make the machine quieter.
That is frustrating about the drip tray being just too long! Those are hard to locate; even in the States.
One of the failures which happens with these systems is 'migration of the oil' from the compressor to the evaporator. The compressor may be very low on oil, with all the oil located in the evaporator. When the Freon charge is too low, the oil will not return to the compressor. As you work on the system, be mindful of that.
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Post by oldfashion on Aug 18, 2023 15:34:17 GMT
Ad on info to the Cathedrals. The picture shows Bourges in France. The bracings outside the builing are necessary as they take the enormous forces from the walls that came from the hight and the approach to reduce or totaly avoid columns in the middle of the main room. They wanted to create a wide, open and to heaven aspirig effect. Columns would have ruined the effect. If the bracings were taken away the whole static would collapse immediately (they learned that by accidends; in those days cathedrals could collapse several times during erection; sometimes the master builder was burired with its work and so the only one who knows in detail the "how to" and what to avoid ...)
Thanks for the info about the trapped oil. I'll see whats inside the tubes.
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