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Post by coldspaces on Jan 14, 2017 22:41:46 GMT
First off this is an experiment, I am in no way telling anyone that it is 100% safe to put a flammable refrigerant in older equipment. If you chose to do so you do it at your own risk. This DR 2 G16 was brought up to me by Travis and Ray their last trip just to be used a Ginny pig to test other refrigerants in. Its history is it was bought as a working unit by Travis's friend I believe in the Chicago area and when he got it home it would not cool much at all. He thought it had lost most of its so2 because the charge screw was a bit loose. After it came to me I never got around to running it to see if it worked before it got below 0 F outside. When it got cold out I took advantage of it and recovered the so2 from this unit and got almost a full charge out. It has been sitting with a dry nitrogen charge in it. I wish now I would have run it with so2 inside to see if it worked. I think maybe it was oiled logged in the float and or evap. but may never know for sure.( Travis was it ever tipped upside down?)  The flex wires to the overload have been replaced and need a little attention but so far they are carrying the load.  After I realized that R152a is close to so2 in most respects but the pressure, which is a little higher, I decided it was to available to not try it and see what happens. It is commonly sold as keyboard duster although so is 134a in some brands. Most of these keyboard dusters have a bitterant added to discourage huffing of the gas. The most common bitterant is a form of a salt so even though the concentration is small best to avoid it if possible. Although people who are using r152a in there old cars have not been to worried about it. The ones with the bitterant added leave a film on things people do not like so it is possible to find it with no bitterant added. Camera cleaning is one use where they try to avoid the bitterant. Since they do not really sell this gas for refrigerant use I will not post the brand I bought. I will say I had to "Blow Off" most the other brands and find the one that is double filtered, moisture free and does not say anywhere on the can or online that it has the bitterant added. One challenge I had was getting it out of the cans. I was able to improvise and use an old tap for the small r-012 cans. Need to made the straps more secure to it, but it worked.  |
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Post by Travis on Jan 14, 2017 22:53:29 GMT
Gill, I don't believe that unit was ever upside down. It originally came to Lou on a porcelain cabinet that Doug's friend Kyle has in Ohio.
I never tried to make that unit work. I just ran it and knew it didn't. That's a great charging adapter. I wonder if the EPA is in your neighborhood yet?
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 1:24:35 GMT
Thursday I plugged in the oil heater and started the vacuum pump on this unit, letting it run most of the day. At the end I tripped the unit so the float would open to be sure the low side had evacuated fully. I kept the discharge line up so oil would stay out of the condenser coil. The garage was in the 30s to start with and the heat was only on part of the day. That night I charged in most of 20 oz of 152a to start with and turned her on. At first it tried to cool but I could not get the float to stay open and make the gas circulate it seemed. I think things might have been oil logged but not sure. I added 10 more oz and still nothing till I opened the float manually. With the float forced open I had plenty of flow and it was frosting the coil but if I closed the float it would not open on its own. The whole time there was a bit of rattle probably from putting in so much liquid fast through the high side that it was in the cold oil and the heater did not have time to boil it all out. At this point I decided to add one more 10 oz can. Well it still didn't want to open the float and it was a lot noisier than before I added the last can. I ran it like this for enough time that the compressor seemed to be warmed up and and I though the refrigerant should have left the oil but the float still would not cooperate. Manually opening of float worked great so I knew the float was not plugged shut. Finally I got tired of the noise and decided its late and time to let the heater work all night even though the garage was cold. Friday morning I tried it again and had the same noise and no float unless I forced it open. I let it run for some time with float open and it all warmed up good but the rattle was still pretty bad and the float would not open on its own. At this point I was starting to think the 152a did not have the liquid density to open the float. I had to shut it down and go to work. Late that after noon I tried it again and there was no rattle at all and to my surprise the float started to work on its own. I can only think that either the evap. was oil logged some still or the oil finally got warm enough to free up enough refrigerant to make the liquid needed to open the float. Could also be that the float was plain sticking someway. The garage was pretty cold all that day so I would have thought the oil might still be pretty cold also and expected it to still rattle. During all this I had taken the control sensor lose so it would run non stop. After running about 1 3/4 hours straight I took these pics. Garage was 60-65 f at the time. Watts were real close to what it should be at 80 F so it looks promising. I have since hooked the control bulb back to the coil and it will set and cycle nicely in the 60 F ambient, it is setting in the open air and not on a cabinet. Watts are about 220 at start up and drop to about 190 or below when it cycles off. I have started it several more times from a 40 ish ambient with no rattle and float works right off, of course I have left the heater on the whole time.    |
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Post by ckfan on Jan 15, 2017 2:21:09 GMT
Gill! That is fantastic! I love that adapter that you made to mate to that duster can. The watt draw looks pretty comparable. I really hope that this "refrigerant" doesn't have any nasty side effects on the rest of the system. That evaporator looks nice and frosty, that is for sure.
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 2:26:37 GMT
It is a HFC so it should be comparable to running R134a. We know it has done well in the flooded evaps. even though we are leaving in the mineral oil.
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 2:49:23 GMT
I did a couple of videos last night. I know Travis will want to know if it makes boiling sounds in the evap or not lol. As we know the camera mic makes it sound way louder than it is. I am very happy with the sound level in the cool garage but wonder about higher ambient. My 38 flat top kick on at the same time as this DR2 last night, The DR2 was close to the same with just a bit more of a labored sound. youtu.be/F3t0rDcO00Ayoutu.be/2iL2ZkO_arw |
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Post by Travis on Jan 15, 2017 2:50:12 GMT
Wow, that's fascinating. I don't think canned air would have run me out of the house like so2 did.
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 2:53:29 GMT
Wow, that's fascinating. I don't think canned air would have run me out of the house like so2 did. No it sure won't unless you get it with the bitterant added. And so2 would even make that smell good! |
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Post by Travis on Jan 15, 2017 3:03:08 GMT
If this works in the long run, I wonder if it can be bought in a larger quantity?
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Post by Travis on Jan 15, 2017 3:03:25 GMT
If this works in the long run, I wonder if it can be bought in a larger quantity?
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 3:10:16 GMT
If this works in the long run, I wonder if it can be bought in a larger quantity? It may be available in larger quantities but $5 for 10 oz isn't bad. That was at Menards, it is cheaper on line. |
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Post by Travis on Jan 15, 2017 3:16:36 GMT
It sounds very promising. I guess we'll order it by the case. I can't wait for someone to ask me why I have cases of canned air.
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Post by allan on Jan 15, 2017 3:21:58 GMT
Great work ! Any updates on the performance? Will this refrigerant be ok with the cotton winding insulation and mineral oil? Looks promising
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Post by allan on Jan 15, 2017 3:24:22 GMT
Thursday I plugged in the oil heater and started the vacuum pump on this unit, letting it run most of the day. At the end I tripped the unit so the float would open to be sure the low side had evacuated fully. I kept the discharge line up so oil would stay out of the condenser coil. The garage was in the 30s to start with and the heat was only on part of the day. That night I charged in most of 20 oz of 152a to start with and turned her on. At first it tried to cool but I could not get the float to stay open and make the gas circulate it seemed. I think things might have been oil logged but not sure. I added 10 more oz and still nothing till I opened the float manually. With the float forced open I had plenty of flow and it was frosting the coil but if I closed the float it would not open on its own. The whole time there was a bit of rattle probably from putting in so much liquid fast through the high side that it was in the cold oil and the heater did not have time to boil it all out. At this point I decided to add one more 10 oz can. Well it still didn't want to open the float and it was a lot noisier than before I added the last can. I ran it like this for enough time that the compressor seemed to be warmed up and and I though the refrigerant should have left the oil but the float still would not cooperate. Manually opening of float worked great so I knew the float was not plugged shut. Finally I got tired of the noise and decided its late and time to let the heater work all night even though the garage was cold. Friday morning I tried it again and had the same noise and no float unless I forced it open. I let it run for some time with float open and it all warmed up good but the rattle was still pretty bad and the float would not open on its own. At this point I was starting to think the 152a did not have the liquid density to open the float. I had to shut it down and go to work. Late that after noon I tried it again and there was no rattle at all and to my surprise the float started to work on its own. I can only think that either the evap. was oil logged some still or the oil finally got warm enough to free up enough refrigerant to make the liquid needed to open the float. Could also be that the float was plain sticking someway. The garage was pretty cold all that day so I would have thought the oil might still be pretty cold also and expected it to still rattle. During all this I had taken the control sensor lose so it would run non stop. After running about 1 3/4 hours straight I took these pics. Garage was 60-65 f at the time. Watts were real close to what it should be at 80 F so it looks promising. I have since hooked the control bulb back to the coil and it will set and cycle nicely in the 60 F ambient, it is setting in the open air and not on a cabinet. Watts are about 220 at start up and drop to about 190 or below when it cycles off. I have started it several more times from a 40 ish ambient with no rattle and float works right off, of course I have left the heater on the whole time. I never seen an Evap like that on any D series. It looks like a CK evap? |
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Post by coldspaces on Jan 15, 2017 3:25:24 GMT
Great work ! Any updates on the performance? Will this refrigerant be ok with the cotton winding insulation and mineral oil? Looks promising Allan its only been charged for two days so performance info is limited. I plan to get it on a cabinet next to see how it does, problem is it will still be in the garage that is not heated 24/7. I have no idea about the cotton but 134a didn't seem to bother it so far. |
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