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Post by mike75 on Aug 31, 2021 13:16:02 GMT
I have a CA-2-B16 that's been in the family for as long as I can remember (60 years). I'm not sure when it was finally unplugged but probably in the last 15-20 years. I never asked my dad the symptoms when it stopped cooling. I'm hoping it was just the heater. I plugged the unit in with a kill-a-watt to test the heater and nothing. So the heater had probably failed so it was unplugged. I've got some time on my hands and want to re-awake it. The first thing I want to do is replace the heater. I see from the forum that 12W heaters are available from PTS, although when I searched for the part number 20902 it was not found. I see you can removed the little cap that covers the heater. Can the heater be replaced without lifting the top off? And if I need to remove the top can I lay the whole refrigerator on it's side to remove the top then set the top upright? The basement ceiling is too low to lift it straight up. Let me know ... Thanks, Mike
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Post by turbokinetic on Aug 31, 2021 13:40:44 GMT
I have a CA-2-B16 that's been in the family for as long as I can remember (60 years). I'm not sure when it was finally unplugged but probably in the last 15-20 years. I never asked my dad the symptoms when it stopped cooling. I'm hoping it was just the heater. I plugged the unit in with a kill-a-watt to test the heater and nothing. So the heater had probably failed so it was unplugged. I've got some time on my hands and want to re-awake it. The first thing I want to do is replace the heater. I see from the forum that 12W heaters are available from PTS, although when I searched for the part number 20902 it was not found. I see you can removed the little cap that covers the heater. Can the heater be replaced without lifting the top off? And if I need to remove the top can I lay the whole refrigerator on it's side to remove the top then set the top upright? The basement ceiling is too low to lift it straight up. Let me know ... Thanks, Mike Hi Mike. Welcome to our forum. Happy you're working to get your CA going again. The heater can in fact be changed out through the hole on the rear of the machine, at the base of the compressor. You won't need to lift the cooling unit off the cabinet. I always use a hook-shaped pick tool, and needle-nose pliers, to pull the old heater out. Then you'll need to use some insulation sleeve to stabilize the old wiring before connecting the new heater. It's best to call PTS heat and explain what you need. They're familiar with our fridges and will have the heater in stock but it may be under a slightly different part number. It's very dicey to lay the cabinet over in an attempt to take the cooling unit off. The chance of snagging and breaking the refrigerant lines is very high. It can be done but it's tough because the gaskets often stick the top to the cabinet, and it lets go all at once unexpectedly. Sincerely, David |
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Post by cablehack on Sept 1, 2021 0:00:12 GMT
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Post by mike75 on Jan 23, 2022 20:07:16 GMT
So I finally got the new 12W heater installed. Kill-A-Watt says 10 watts when plugged in. I let the heater warm for 13 hours but the unit tripped and didn't start. I've been watching David's videos but I'm not sure what to do next. Should I buy a capacitor? And I don't have any loose single phase motors laying around. Any thoughts. I was concerned about leaving the unit plugged in to continue heat the oil if I was away from the house for an extended period of time. Thanks
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Post by mike75 on Jan 23, 2022 20:16:34 GMT
I just read the introduction to the CA ... I will let the unit heat for at least 24 hours.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jan 24, 2022 14:24:35 GMT
So I finally got the new 12W heater installed. Kill-A-Watt says 10 watts when plugged in. I let the heater warm for 13 hours but the unit tripped and didn't start. I've been watching David's videos but I'm not sure what to do next. Should I buy a capacitor? And I don't have any loose single phase motors laying around. Any thoughts. I was concerned about leaving the unit plugged in to continue heat the oil if I was away from the house for an extended period of time. Thanks I just read the introduction to the CA ... I will let the unit heat for at least 24 hours. Glad you got the heater and were able to install it. Unfortunate that it didn't go for you. If the control switch is off, with just the heater powered on, it's not going to do anything bad if you do leave it plugged in. The heat will help it, but only so much. When you say it "tripped and didn't start" you mean that when the control was turned to ON position, it made a humming sound, for 20 or 30 seconds, then the overload breaker in the control tripped? If that is the case, you need to inspect the relay to be sure the start contacts are working and not worn away. That would be the first thing, which could indeed be the problem. Also, if it is going to start, it will start almost immediately (within two seconds). If it's humming but not starting, don't leave the control ON until it trips. Give it about a 5 second start attempt, then turn it off. The overload device only has so many cycles before it is worn out. These are not intended for repeated tripping. Also, always wait 5 minutes before moving the control knob after it trips. There is solder which melts inside the control when it is tripped. Reset attempts before the solder has cooled and re-solidified can displace the solder and cause the control to never reset. |
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Post by mike75 on Jan 24, 2022 17:08:10 GMT
Yes. I turned the switch to the on position, it hummed for about 10 seconds then the overload breaker would trip then I would switch it off. Thank you for the advice about switching the unit off before forcing a "trip" I will check the relay. I do have a question: Once the heater fails will the refrigerator stop running? If my parents didn't see that the refrigerator stopped cooling (was used just for beverages) would the refrigerator continually try to start and then the overload breaker trip? What if this happened for weeks?
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Post by turbokinetic on Jan 24, 2022 17:31:51 GMT
Yes. I turned the switch to the on position, it hummed for about 10 seconds then the overload breaker would trip then I would switch it off. Thank you for the advice about switching the unit off before forcing a "trip" I will check the relay. I do have a question: Once the heater fails will the refrigerator stop running? If my parents didn't see that the refrigerator stopped cooling (was used just for beverages) would the refrigerator continually try to start and then the overload breaker trip? What if this happened for weeks? Well, since these are manual-reset overloads, it wouldn't keep trying for weeks. It would require a reset each time. That is one reason so many of these are still able to be brought back to life. They don't keep cycling on the overload until destroyed. As for the heater, it will exacerbate lubrication problems. The combination of never having had the noncondensible gas purge procedure accomplished for decades, plus the bad heater, will lead to lubrication failure and seized compressor. Once that happens, the only way to safely get it going is to be sure it is relieved of NCG overpressure, and be sure the oil is piping hot before start attempts. You want to be sure it quickly gets lubrication as soon as it starts up. If it is stuck or seized, you'll need to ensure all the excess pressure is out of the system before trying boosting methods to get it going. But, don' jump to conclusions as it could be the relay. |
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Post by don on Jan 25, 2022 22:27:20 GMT
My first antique refrigerator was purchased in the month of December 2008. It was a porcelain cabinet CA unit that I purchased after being told it did not run. Fourteen years ago I was younger and could even then barely manhandle thebeast out of the basement in two pieces on an appliance dolly and into my garage. It was December and I planned to wait for spring to troubleshoot it. After several months I decided to try to see if it would to start even though it was still winter. To my surprise it started right up. In the spring I did find a bad crankcase heater and I did replace it. Years later it did seize up again after a period of non use and I eventually cut the machine open to find copper plating on the rotating surfaces had caused the seizure.
In hindsight I suspect that it might have been seized from copper plating when I purchased it. Sitting in my garage in the minnesota winter it would have been exposed to below zero temperatures. Several years ago when I researched this I remember finding that a one foot shaft of steel (vertical rotor shaft) can shrink quite a bit @-20F temperatures and in my thinking maybe even enuf to break away from the copper plating.
I often thot if I were to find another CA compressor that had seized I would experiment with it and try to start it after an extended stay at a very cold temperature. I bring this up as I see you are located in Northern Iowa and this is in the winter months. It would be an easy fix entailing taking only the top outside. I suspect that the seizures only happen if the machine is not run enuf and the copper plating can then happen.
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Post by ChrisJ on Jan 26, 2022 17:34:45 GMT
My first antique refrigerator was purchased in the month of December 2008. It was a porcelain cabinet CA unit that I purchased after being told it did not run. Fourteen years ago I was younger and could even then barely manhandle thebeast out of the basement in two pieces on an appliance dolly and into my garage. It was December and I planned to wait for spring to troubleshoot it. After several months I decided to try to see if it would to start even though it was still winter. To my surprise it started right up. In the spring I did find a bad crankcase heater and I did replace it. Years later it did seize up again after a period of non use and I eventually cut the machine open to find copper plating on the rotating surfaces had caused the seizure.
In hindsight I suspect that it might have been seized from copper plating when I purchased it. Sitting in my garage in the minnesota winter it would have been exposed to below zero temperatures. Several years ago when I researched this I remember finding that a one foot shaft of steel (vertical rotor shaft) can shrink quite a bit @-20F temperatures and in my thinking maybe even enuf to break away from the copper plating.
I often thot if I were to find another CA compressor that had seized I would experiment with it and try to start it after an extended stay at a very cold temperature. I bring this up as I see you are located in Northern Iowa and this is in the winter months. It would be an easy fix entailing taking only the top outside. I suspect that the seizures only happen if the machine is not run enuf and the copper plating can then happen. It's an interesting idea, and may work. But keep in mind though the rotor does shrink, so does the cylinder it's in. I believe GE had to be very careful and keep both the same material in order to maintain clearances. What may work is if the entire compressor is cooled down a lot, and then you try to warm it because I'd expect the cylinder to expand before the rotor. |
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Post by turbokinetic on Jan 26, 2022 18:50:09 GMT
My first antique refrigerator was purchased in the month of December 2008. It was a porcelain cabinet CA unit that I purchased after being told it did not run. Fourteen years ago I was younger and could even then barely manhandle thebeast out of the basement in two pieces on an appliance dolly and into my garage. It was December and I planned to wait for spring to troubleshoot it. After several months I decided to try to see if it would to start even though it was still winter. To my surprise it started right up. In the spring I did find a bad crankcase heater and I did replace it. Years later it did seize up again after a period of non use and I eventually cut the machine open to find copper plating on the rotating surfaces had caused the seizure.
In hindsight I suspect that it might have been seized from copper plating when I purchased it. Sitting in my garage in the minnesota winter it would have been exposed to below zero temperatures. Several years ago when I researched this I remember finding that a one foot shaft of steel (vertical rotor shaft) can shrink quite a bit @-20F temperatures and in my thinking maybe even enuf to break away from the copper plating.
I often thot if I were to find another CA compressor that had seized I would experiment with it and try to start it after an extended stay at a very cold temperature. I bring this up as I see you are located in Northern Iowa and this is in the winter months. It would be an easy fix entailing taking only the top outside. I suspect that the seizures only happen if the machine is not run enuf and the copper plating can then happen. It's an interesting idea, and may work. But keep in mind though the rotor does shrink, so does the cylinder it's in. I believe GE had to be very careful and keep both the same material in order to maintain clearances. What may work is if the entire compressor is cooled down a lot, and then you try to warm it because I'd expect the cylinder to expand before the rotor. Interestingly, I have found the opposite to be true. Heating them up piping hot with an oversize oil heater has been what allows me to get them to go again. |
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Post by ChrisJ on Jan 26, 2022 19:20:50 GMT
It's an interesting idea, and may work. But keep in mind though the rotor does shrink, so does the cylinder it's in. I believe GE had to be very careful and keep both the same material in order to maintain clearances. What may work is if the entire compressor is cooled down a lot, and then you try to warm it because I'd expect the cylinder to expand before the rotor. Interestingly, I have found the opposite to be true. Heating them up piping hot with an oversize oil heater has been what allows me to get them to go again. But that agrees with what I said, no? |
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Post by turbokinetic on Jan 26, 2022 19:34:48 GMT
Interestingly, I have found the opposite to be true. Heating them up piping hot with an oversize oil heater has been what allows me to get them to go again. But that agrees with what I said, no? Yes, exactly. I guess it wasn't clear I meant opposite to leaving them in the cold. Sorry. |
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Post by don on Jan 27, 2022 0:37:56 GMT
The coefficient of expansion of the copper plating sandwiched between two plates of steel with differing coefficients of expansion would be the explanation of why lowering the temperature or increasing the temperatures might free the bond between the rotating parts of the CA methyl formate refrigerating machine. I can remember bringing the CA condensing unit top into the house for ? hours before trying to start it. As I said this would be an experiment that I would like to try in these northern states where it is possible.
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Post by mike75 on Jan 28, 2022 22:17:30 GMT
So I ordered a bristle key. What kind of oil (PAO mineral oil?) and where can I get it in small quantities so I can test for NCG’s? I haven’t been to the house to check the relay yet. I’m going to check for 1000 ohms at the power cord (although it's a new 12W heater), take pictures, and check and release any NCG’s. After I eliminate the room temperature NCG's then I'll start heating the oil for 24+ hours and try a system start. Correct? I just watched CableHacks NCG bleeding video. So sewing machine oil ...
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