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Post by ckfan on Jun 14, 2021 12:13:34 GMT
You’re on the right track. You will get it sorted out.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 14, 2021 12:51:51 GMT
It looks to me like I need to replace that short section of tubing between where it's cracked, and where that swaged tubing comes out of the evaporator. I'm just not sure if this is when I need to do that. I bought a piece of tubing and have solder, but I didn't have the liquid stay bright flux and couldn't find any in town so I had to order some. It looks like a really weak spot there, even if it were soldered over. It's not leaking anymore so I can at least stand to be around it now, so is this when that sort of operation is done, or do I need to do something else? I am sorry that I'm so dense on this subject, you guys have really been helpful and I appreciate that a lot. I also posted some pictures of the two style legs, the standard size and the legs from that balltop. I got some paint sprayed on the cabinet, legs and door this afternoon. I have one other cabinet I'm refinishing for a friend of mine, but I don't have room to do both of them at the same time. I'm in the middle of refinishing three Edison phonographs and a 20's Stromberg Carlson radio and stand but the grain filler hasn't shown up yet, so they can wait. He Earl. I've faced the broken line scenario a multitude of times. Sorry I haven't been able to spend much time on here lately due to work obligations. As for the line broken at the float valve outlet, I would not recommend trying to repair the cracked line by soldering over the crack. That's just asking for a future failure. That line is reasonably easily drilled out of the float valve fitting. It's a lot more structurally sound to replace that section of tubing with a new section. This is the case because the maximum stress is concentrated at that point where the tubing goes into the float valve and there is a large step in size. Having a soldered-over crack at that point is going to be dicey. Also, your fridge appears to have already been repaired once at that point, leaving no strain relief in that area. It would be a lot safer to just cut out that whole sordid mess and start over. The way I accomplish this is by drilling the old line out, with a 1/4" drill bit. Place a stop sleeve over the drill bit, so it can't go in too deeply and drill into the valve mechanism. You only need to drill out the soldered area of the line, up to about 1/2" into the fitting. Then use StayBrite solder to install a new piece of tubing into the float valve. Don't attempt to melt out the existing braze joint because the entire float seat assembly will melt out before the line does! That is fatal to the float valve. The StayBrite solder works at a lower temperature and won't risk this sort of problem.
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 14, 2021 13:26:49 GMT
Thank you so much for that. That is what I wasn't sure about and I couldn't figure out how just soldering that would hold it. It will hold it long enough for me to get after it with a pump, so there is that. Fedex said that the vacuum pump I ordered would be here in Friday, but now it's stuck in Wisconsin with no delivery time known. I'll get something figured out today and get the rest of the refrigerant out of there. Then I can make the repair you mentioned. That line has definitely been banged around or something in the past. Which really isn't a surprise from what I've read.
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Post by ChrisJ on Jun 14, 2021 13:41:07 GMT
It looks to me like I need to replace that short section of tubing between where it's cracked, and where that swaged tubing comes out of the evaporator. I'm just not sure if this is when I need to do that. I bought a piece of tubing and have solder, but I didn't have the liquid stay bright flux and couldn't find any in town so I had to order some. It looks like a really weak spot there, even if it were soldered over. It's not leaking anymore so I can at least stand to be around it now, so is this when that sort of operation is done, or do I need to do something else? I am sorry that I'm so dense on this subject, you guys have really been helpful and I appreciate that a lot. I also posted some pictures of the two style legs, the standard size and the legs from that balltop. I got some paint sprayed on the cabinet, legs and door this afternoon. I have one other cabinet I'm refinishing for a friend of mine, but I don't have room to do both of them at the same time. I'm in the middle of refinishing three Edison phonographs and a 20's Stromberg Carlson radio and stand but the grain filler hasn't shown up yet, so they can wait. He Earl. I've faced the broken line scenario a multitude of times. Sorry I haven't been able to spend much time on here lately due to work obligations. As for the line broken at the float valve outlet, I would not recommend trying to repair the cracked line by soldering over the crack. That's just asking for a future failure. That line is reasonably easily drilled out of the float valve fitting. It's a lot more structurally sound to replace that section of tubing with a new section. This is the case because the maximum stress is concentrated at that point where the tubing goes into the float valve and there is a large step in size. Having a soldered-over crack at that point is going to be dicey. Also, your fridge appears to have already been repaired once at that point, leaving no strain relief in that area. It would be a lot safer to just cut out that whole sordid mess and start over. The way I accomplish this is by drilling the old line out, with a 1/4" drill bit. Place a stop sleeve over the drill bit, so it can't go in too deeply and drill into the valve mechanism. You only need to drill out the soldered area of the line, up to about 1/2" into the fitting. Then use StayBrite solder to install a new piece of tubing into the float valve. Don't attempt to melt out the existing braze joint because the entire float seat assembly will melt out before the line does! That is fatal to the float valve. The StayBrite solder works at a lower temperature and won't risk this sort of problem. View AttachmentHi David, Curious, where do you see a previous repair on the line?
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 14, 2021 16:11:23 GMT
.... Also, your fridge appears to have already been repaired once at that point, leaving no strain relief in that area.... Hi David, Curious, where do you see a previous repair on the line? It looks like a cruddy braze joint in that line, plus the original braze joint where the tubing size steps down smaller at the evaporator. Also normally that line is a lot longer and has an "S" curve in it. It could be an illusion in the photo, though.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 14, 2021 19:38:05 GMT
Thank you so much for that. That is what I wasn't sure about and I couldn't figure out how just soldering that would hold it. It will hold it long enough for me to get after it with a pump, so there is that. Fedex said that the vacuum pump I ordered would be here in Friday, but now it's stuck in Wisconsin with no delivery time known. I'll get something figured out today and get the rest of the refrigerant out of there. Then I can make the repair you mentioned. That line has definitely been banged around or something in the past. Which really isn't a surprise from what I've read. People are so rough with these antique machines. It's horrible! Here is a video where I remove the broken line using the technique described. Start at 8:30 in the video to see the line repair. https://youtu.be/2RFuSFzDCak?t=512 If you put a loop of line for a strain relief, it will lessen the chance that happens again in the future, as well.
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 15, 2021 0:43:00 GMT
That line is quite short and there is not much slack in it, but it's also been banged around some as well over the years.
And thanks for pointing that video out. I probably watched that four times this weekend as I had a feeling between that video and the one where you worked on the one made in 1933 is where the answer would be. Well, if it was a snake, it would have bit me. That's all I can say!
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 15, 2021 1:44:05 GMT
That line is quite short and there is not much slack in it, but it's also been banged around some as well over the years. And thanks for pointing that video out. I probably watched that four times this weekend as I had a feeling between that video and the one where you worked on the one made in 1933 is where the answer would be. Well, if it was a snake, it would have bit me. That's all I can say! Happy to help!
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 21, 2021 1:03:10 GMT
I've spent most of today with that vacuum pump on this CG and I've pressurized it with about 60 lb of nitrogen and then put the pump back on it 3-4 times now and I'm not really smelling much of the nasty stuff now while that pump is running. This is what the gauge reads for vacuum and that seems to be pretty much what I've seen on other refrigerators going through this process. I can leave the pump run all night as far as that goes, and that seems to be what you guys do with these things. I tipped it forward a few hours ago and that seemed to shake a little more So2 loose, but not too much. Now I just think I'm smelling it every time I'm near the thing. Haha! My nephew stopped by a little while ago and he said he didn't smell anything, so there is that.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 21, 2021 1:11:49 GMT
I've spent most of today with that vacuum pump on this CG and I've pressurized it with about 60 lb of nitrogen and then put the pump back on it 3-4 times now and I'm not really smelling much of the nasty stuff now while that pump is running. This is what the gauge reads for vacuum and that seems to be pretty much what I've seen on other refrigerators going through this process. I can leave the pump run all night as far as that goes, and that seems to be what you guys do with these things. I tipped it forward a few hours ago and that seemed to shake a little more So2 loose, but not too much. Now I just think I'm smelling it every time I'm near the thing. Haha! My nephew stopped by a little while ago and he said he didn't smell anything, so there is that. Hi Earl. It sounds like you're getting there. I do have one concern about your vacuum reading though. It seems to be way high. When the vacuum pump is fully pulled down and working correctly, it should read "30 In Hg" on that type of gauge. It looks like you're seeing 20"Hg which would indicate a defective vacuum pump or a massive leak; or it could be the gauges. Not trying to rain on your parade! Just offering some advice based on what I see.
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 21, 2021 1:20:03 GMT
As an aside, this is my grandmother's kitchen in 1947. My Mom took a bunch of color slides back in those days. I found a slide duplicator and took some pictures of the slides this morning. They remodeled that whole house in 1951, so I don't remember it looking like this at all, but I do remember the refrigerator after seeing this picture. She kept it in the dining room after they remodeled the place and got rid of it in 1970 when she moved into town. I asked Mom about it this afternoon and she said that when they got electricity in 1941 PG&E had a deal with GE to buy appliances for half price (or her mom would have never spent the money!) Mom said the picture must have been taken after it was cold out because Minnie would not have kept it plugged in during the winter when the room off the kitchen was cold anyway. So the table was pushed up against it. Mom said she also bought a GE radio and that it was a lot uglier than the Philco they had before that. But at least they didn't have to mess with charging the battery anymore. When I first started at UPS there was an old guy up at Interstate power that had been there for over 50 years. They had a display of appliances and pictures of them that he said they sold for less than cost in those days because they'd make up for it with the utility bills eventually. He said the biggest mistake they made was about 1935 or so when they sent out electric steam irons as a Christmas gift to everyone that had gone modern. He said those gals knew electricity and water didn't mix, so hardly any of them were used and they didn't realize they could use them without being full of water!
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 21, 2021 3:39:13 GMT
I was wondering about that gauge reading, and it's probably that pump. When I close the valves off, it will hold that reading at -20 at least for 10 minutes or so. when I had pressure in it from the nitrogen, it would gradually go down some in about 10 minutes or so. That may have something to do with the valves, but I also haven't put soapy water on anything to see if there are bubbles. You are not raining on my parade at all, that's why I posted that picture of the gauge. The other thing is, the gauge I have on the nitrogen tank reads pretty much the same as the gauges on the manifold, so they seem to be in agreement with each other.
This has been a learning experience and I'm not discouraged yet. I've worked on player pianos that did about drive me nuts. Haha! I can't do much with it during the week anyway with work and all, so I'll put some pressure in it and keep an eye on it. Thanks sir, you do good work.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 21, 2021 12:14:19 GMT
I was wondering about that gauge reading, and it's probably that pump. When I close the valves off, it will hold that reading at -20 at least for 10 minutes or so. when I had pressure in it from the nitrogen, it would gradually go down some in about 10 minutes or so. That may have something to do with the valves, but I also haven't put soapy water on anything to see if there are bubbles. You are not raining on my parade at all, that's why I posted that picture of the gauge. The other thing is, the gauge I have on the nitrogen tank reads pretty much the same as the gauges on the manifold, so they seem to be in agreement with each other. This has been a learning experience and I'm not discouraged yet. I've worked on player pianos that did about drive me nuts. Haha! I can't do much with it during the week anyway with work and all, so I'll put some pressure in it and keep an eye on it. Thanks sir, you do good work. Cool; glad you're OK with my reply! I would test the gauge by connecting the blue hose from the gauge set directly to the vacuum pump inlet. Close the blue valve and run the pump. The vacuum gauge should indicate within the needle's width of 30" vacuum. If it does not, then you either have a pump or a gauge problem. Those vacuum pumps are oil-sealed and require a specific low-vapor-pressure oil. Furthermore the oil must be in clean condition and not containing any impurities such as water, solvents, alcohol, etc. which have a significant vapor pressure. I would first try replacing the pump oil and see if that makes a difference. If not, then see if you can take your gauges to someone who has a known-good pump and see what they show. You can get the oil from any HVAC supplier, or from any automotive supply shop who sells A/C repair products. I can only imagine how complex a player piano is. That is bound to be a fantastic mechanical wonderland of unexpected surprises in there!
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Post by ChrisJ on Jun 21, 2021 13:55:44 GMT
Back in 2013 when I started working on my machines I gave up on trying to use the manifold set for vacuum and bought a Yellowjacket micron gauge. I would never rely on anything else anymore and the first thing I do before pulling a vacuum is connect the micron gauge directly to the pump and make sure it'll pull down to 50 microns or less.
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earlg
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Post by earlg on Jun 21, 2021 23:44:37 GMT
I will have to look into getting one of those micron gauges eventually. I did look into them a little bit after you mentioned it, and they do make some really nice equipment. I'm sure after I get through this one and really grasp what all needs to be done with this one, I'll be a little more confident about how far down this rabbit hole I have any business being in! A plumber has a business a couple of doors down from me, and one of his guys stopped over to see what I was up to this afternoon, and even though he installs central air systems he really has no interest in this thing. I've never understood the lack of curiosity about old stuff, especially if you have a background in the subject at hand. I can understand not wanting to fix other people's stuff, but I'm usually interested in seeing how it works. I did borrow a pump of my brothers and it will pull that thing down to -30 and it will hold vacuum, but not pressure at all. When I get to about 40 pounds of pressure, that solder I put over that crack is not holding. There is a pinhole on the backside where I didn't put much solder on. I'm not smelling much So2 anymore and I'm thinking this might be the time to sort that line out?
I thought the line next to it was cracked as I saw a little bit of oil dripping off it, but it was a pinhole on the back of the line coming out of the float that sprayed a little bit of oil there. Someone did do something with that line a long time ago, but after I scraped it clean it looks ok. It had some nasty black sticky stuff all over it and an old drip of solder on the topside of it and with that mess gone it doesn't look like it's a problem.
I've watched Mr. Turbokinetic's video on drilling that out and replacing it about a dozen times now, so I think this is probably as good a time as any to go ahead with that, unless you guys think I need to do something else first.
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