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Post by sfjames on Feb 10, 2019 6:08:23 GMT
Hello all, new kid here... I have a 1946 Kelvinator. I purchased it from the Son of the first owner and it had been used since 1946. I ran it in my garage for about 5 years and then it needed to be gone through as the paint was going and the inside smelled. I guess about 70 years is all that fiberglass insulation can take smell wise... So I carefully removed the compressor and cooling unit. It comes out as one in this fridge. I had the case painted, re-insulated, and put it all back together. It worked fine for a week. Then the temp started to drop and the ice box with the coils was dripping. In the side - top - rear corner of the freezer box there is a copper line coming off the ice box itself. That couple of inches of line had a LOT of frost over ice built up on it. I used my heat gun and melted it and warmed the entire freezer box and the thing started working again. I checked the compressor before I did this and the temp on the center of the compressor case came up to 140F (Ambient is 60F). Once I warmed up the freezer box the compressor temp dropped. Usually, once the entire fridge is cold the compressor runs between 60F and 80F. Over the last couple of weeks, it keeps doing the same thing. I have isolated the problem to that couple of inches of tube and the first couple of inches where it enters the freezer coil unit. If I just heat up that spot the entire freezer box starts to drop in temp at once. I will run for a few days and then I can repeat the cycle. I have added a before and after photo to this post. Anyone with refrigeration training or experience have any idea what it is doing? Thanks, James.
Well, I would have loaded up the photos, but the forum system tossed and error that this sub-forum has exceeded the space available. The sys admin may want to take note...
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Post by icebox on Feb 10, 2019 17:46:14 GMT
Hi James, welcome to the forum! Sorry to hear you're having some troubles with your Kelvinator. Before I dive in with what it might be, one question I have is that when the fault occurs, is the compressor running all the time ? Or is it mostly off ? This should narrow the fault down to thermostat issue or cooling system issue.
Kind regards,
Steve.
ps - forum is a bit full - it's alway filling up with photo's!
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Post by turbokinetic on Feb 10, 2019 22:10:45 GMT
Hello all, new kid here... I have a 1946 Kelvinator. I purchased it from the Son of the first owner and it had been used since 1946. I ran it in my garage for about 5 years and then it needed to be gone through as the paint was going and the inside smelled. I guess about 70 years is all that fiberglass insulation can take smell wise... So I carefully removed the compressor and cooling unit. It comes out as one in this fridge. I had the case painted, re-insulated, and put it all back together. It worked fine for a week. Then the temp started to drop and the ice box with the coils was dripping. In the side - top - rear corner of the freezer box there is a copper line coming off the ice box itself. That couple of inches of line had a LOT of frost over ice built up on it. I used my heat gun and melted it and warmed the entire freezer box and the thing started working again. I checked the compressor before I did this and the temp on the center of the compressor case came up to 140F (Ambient is 60F). Once I warmed up the freezer box the compressor temp dropped. Usually, once the entire fridge is cold the compressor runs between 60F and 80F. Over the last couple of weeks, it keeps doing the same thing. I have isolated the problem to that couple of inches of tube and the first couple of inches where it enters the freezer coil unit. If I just heat up that spot the entire freezer box starts to drop in temp at once. I will run for a few days and then I can repeat the cycle. I have added a before and after photo to this post. Anyone with refrigeration training or experience have any idea what it is doing? Thanks, James.
Well, I would have loaded up the photos, but the forum system tossed and error that this sub-forum has exceeded the space available. The sys admin may want to take note...
Hi James. That symptom is a classic symptom of a blockage in the line at that point. There will be a capillary tube which allows a small flow of refrigerant liquid to flow from the high pressure side to the low pressure side. There can be some debris from normal system aging or wear-and-tear; or there can be water trapped in the refrigerant, which freezes and clogs up the system at that point.
If the problem reoccurs you will need to install a filter / dryer in the system.
As for where the water comes from; it seems that the materials inside the compressor can chemically change over time, and release small amounts of water, which will become a problem once enough of it builds up. This is exacerbated by high temperatures. If the compressor start relay fails, or the compressor is short-cycled and stalled, the winding can get hotter than normal, and release water into the system. A dryer will eliminate this and also collect any future water which appears.
There's also a chance that moving the compressor / cooling unit around could have "churned up" some particles in the system and allowed them to reach the orifice tube. This sort of blockage does not often clear its self up as yours is doing.
Dryers are very cheap, but you'll need to cut and solder the lines to install it. It would require removal of the original refrigerant, soldering in the new dryer, evacuating the system, and recharging it.
Hope this helps! Sincerely, David
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Post by sfjames on Feb 11, 2019 4:14:42 GMT
Hi Everyone,
As far as I can tell, the compressor keeps running. The line that is freezing up is in the larger of the two lines. I wish the web master made some room so I could post the photos.
One thing here in San Francisco is that I have been trying for weeks to find someone who will come out and evacuate my Ideal 55 slider soda machine. Those machines are built such that you must take the coils apart from the compressor to get the thing apart. No one in the greater Bay Area will service a small 1/8 HP R12 system.
I ended up calling the big regional company that disposes of R12 and they gave me the manager of the local RSD supply house who in tern gave me a name. I think he may come out and take a look at the Ideal and I hope look over the Kelvinator.
One thing in the Kelvinator the way it is built is that the lines run down the back and it has a set of 3 inch stand offs to keep it out from the wall for air flow. So, cutting the lines and adding a drying on the back should not be a big deal...if can find someone to do the evacuation and then the recharge.
James.
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Post by turbokinetic on Feb 11, 2019 9:45:27 GMT
Hi Everyone, As far as I can tell, the compressor keeps running. The line that is freezing up is in the larger of the two lines. I wish the web master made some room so I could post the photos. One thing here in San Francisco is that I have been trying for weeks to find someone who will come out and evacuate my Ideal 55 slider soda machine. Those machines are built such that you must take the coils apart from the compressor to get the thing apart. No one in the greater Bay Area will service a small 1/8 HP R12 system. I ended up calling the big regional company that disposes of R12 and they gave me the manager of the local RSD supply house who in tern gave me a name. I think he may come out and take a look at the Ideal and I hope look over the Kelvinator. One thing in the Kelvinator the way it is built is that the lines run down the back and it has a set of 3 inch stand offs to keep it out from the wall for air flow. So, cutting the lines and adding a drying on the back should not be a big deal...if can find someone to do the evacuation and then the recharge. James. That's interesting that the larger of the two lines is freezing up; as it's usually the supply line which does this. It would still be most likely the moisture issue causing this. That is, of course, a best guess without actually seeing the unit.
We have had concerns with file storage on the forum for a while. It's been an ongoing concern since before my time here. Most of us have adapted by hosting files on an external web hosting site, such as Google Drive. It seems that the forum hosting company makes more money by hosting thousands of small forums without allowing any of them to grow to a significant size.
Cool about the Ideal 55 Slider machine. I know those are very wells ought after. It's interesting how the bottles fit in the machine. Will modern bottles still fit in the mechanism? I looked up some pictures and it looks like it has a Tecumseh compressor, if I am correct?
I've been working on a 1940's Cavalier Coca-Cola water bath cooler. It looks similar to the Ideal 55 machine, but it is for cold storage only, and not a vender. It would be in a shop, where a customer would pull a bottle out, and then purchase it at the counter. This unit has a tub of ice water inside, which is cooled by a large Frigidaire Meter-Miser compressor, to 32°F. There is a light in the cabinet, and the water splashes and circulates by action of an agitator pump. This was an early sales gimmick where the movement of the water, and "uniqueness" of the design would catch people's eyes and draw them to it. Here is a thread with some pictures and video links: monitortop.freeforums.net/thread/1478 I need to get the shell of this picked up from the painter. It's ready for reassembly!
So many people have problems getting these machines worked on. The repair shops are indoctrinated to only want to do one thing - replace systems. There are many reasons for this, but the cheap crap coming in from overseas; and the environmental nonsense these days plays a huge part in the problem. Because of this way of thinking, they have completely lost the skills set to do any in-depth troubleshooting. Since those skills have degenerated so badly, even when there's a system that needs repairs (such as an antique) they are no longer competent to work on it. Living in CA you most likely have these issues to a more extreme degree than others of us do. I hope the service guy you locate is able to help you out. If not, there are several other threads on here where others have faced the problem of no service, and have proceeded to acquire the tools and materials needed to complete the job. If you care about the antiques enough, it could be worth it.
A very stark example of this is my 1948 - 1949 Frigidaire refrigerator. This was purchased and used in a vintage décor house. The owner paid quite a lot of money for it, I am sure. It was working fine, but needed a door gasket and was therefore quite frosted up. The owner had the original frost scraper, in its original package, but instead chose to use a sharp instrument. He punched a hole in the refrigerant coil and let out the R12. Then began his saga of trying to get it repaired. In spite of his best efforts, all he got were dead ends. I bought the fridge from him. It took me about an hour to fix the puncture. I didn't have pictures, but the video has some more information in it. monitortop.freeforums.net/thread/1306
Best of luck getting someone to service your Kelvinator for you. Sincerely, David
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Post by birkie on Feb 11, 2019 12:19:34 GMT
We have had concerns with file storage on the forum for a while. It's been an ongoing concern since before my time here. Most of us have adapted by hosting files on an external web hosting site, such as Google Drive. It seems that the forum hosting company makes more money by hosting thousands of small forums without allowing any of them to grow to a significant size. Yes, sorry about that. You need to use an external provider at the moment. I use flickr, some use imgur, Google Drive also works. If that's too much of a barrier, feel free to send a message to me, or anybody you feel comfortable with. Then you can e-mail and somebody else will post them. So many people have problems getting these machines worked on. The repair shops are indoctrinated to only want to do one thing - replace systems. There are many reasons for this, but the cheap crap coming in from overseas; and the environmental nonsense these days plays a huge part in the problem. Because of this way of thinking, they have completely lost the skills set to do any in-depth troubleshooting. Since those skills have degenerated so badly, even when there's a system that needs repairs (such as an antique) they are no longer competent to work on it. This sums it up exactly. It is unfortunate, but the silver lining is that some members have learned how to do repairs themselves and met with success. Another silver lining is is you're dealing with an R-12 system and not Sulfur Dioxide  |
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Post by sfjames on Feb 11, 2019 15:39:42 GMT
Hi All,
Here is a link to my personal web server where I parked the two photos of the problem for now.
James
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Post by turbokinetic on Feb 11, 2019 17:02:55 GMT
Hi All, Here is a link to my personal web server where I parked the two photos of the problem for now.   James
Hi James. That is the supply tube going into the evaporator, so that would most likely be coming from the metering device. It probably has a smaller gauge capillary tube somewhere in the system, which is soldered into that line. It is still likely that moisture or some other blockage could be at the root of this problem.
Sincerely, David
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Post by icebox on Feb 11, 2019 20:16:33 GMT
Hi James,
yes agree with David, these symptoms are usually low on gas or blockage. Since it runs fine for a while after being switched off, it can't be low on gas, and most likely moisture in the system freezing and causing the blockage. I hope you're successful in finding someone to fix it.
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Post by sfjames on Feb 11, 2019 22:27:57 GMT
John at Antique Appliances sent me a reply to my inquiry on this subject and I am posting it here for others who may need it...I will give it a try over the next couple of days. James
****************** Instructions for removing an oil restriction from the freezer section of a vintage refrigerator
Note that the sensor capillary line from the cold control comes down from the top and secures to the left front side of the freezer section. The system runs all the time because the sensor never picks up a cold enough temperature from the metal surface to tell it to cycle off.
The ice block in the back of the freezer indicates, not a low system charge, but a restriction within the refrigerant flow lines. This typically occurs when oil from the compressor is picked up by the internal compressor pump and rides with the refrigerant until it reaches the evaporator section (freezer). The cold temperature in the freezer section causes the oil to separate, coagulate like jello and stick to the inner refrigerant tube lining. Think clogged arteries in our body! Once one drop sticks, others that follow do the same, in the same place, until the line becomes restricted and the refrigerant cannot flow. While this is not normal, it certainly is a common occurrence, especially if a unit has been transported on its side or back, then set upright and plugged in without adequate time for the oil in the system to drain back to the compressor.
The repair for this is to get the restriction to pass through the system. The method for doing this is to apply heat. Follow these steps, then let me know where you are with it:
1. Turn the refrigerator off by unplugging it. Open the door and allow the system to completely defrost and all components to come to room temperature.
2. Once the system has completely thawed, place a work lamp with a 100 watt bulb, on the bottom freezer floor, turn the work lamp on. If the work lamp has a protection cage around it, remove the cage so that the bulb comes in direct contact with the metal of the freezer floor.
3. PLUG THE REFRIEGRATOR IN AND TURN THE REFRIEGRATION SYSTEM ON. THIS STEP IS CRITICAL TO THE PROCESS! The heat from the 100 watt bulb with transfer to the freezer section, preventing the refrigerant from producing cold. Additionally, the heat will cause the coagulated oil to liquefy. The pressure from the compressor will force the liquefied oil through the system allowing it to re-deposit itself in the compressor where it belongs.
4. Leave the light bulb in place and turned on for approx 2-3 hours with the refrigerator door closed. This allows the maximum amount of heat to build up and transfer to the freezer section.
5. After the allotted time has passed, remove the work lamp, turn the refrigerator off and allow the entire system to equalize and return to room temperature. This should take about 2 hours.
6. After the system has equalized, turn the refrigerator back on and keep the door closed. Allow the system to run for 24 hours and re-stabilize.
After you have accomplished all of the above steps, check the frost pattern in the freezer section, noting where it previously began and ended, compared to where it now begins and ends. A normal flow frost pattern will begin in the back and move evenly to the front. In the event your frost pattern has moved forward, but still seems to end abruptly, then repeat the above process to attempt to move the remaining restriction further through the line.
********************
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Post by turbokinetic on Feb 11, 2019 22:34:15 GMT
John at Antique Appliances sent me a reply to my inquiry on this subject and I am posting it here for others who may need it...I will give it a try over the next couple of days. James
****************** Instructions for removing an oil restriction from the freezer section of a vintage refrigerator
Note that the sensor capillary line from the cold control comes down from the top and secures to the left front side of the freezer section. The system runs all the time because the sensor never picks up a cold enough temperature from the metal surface to tell it to cycle off.
The ice block in the back of the freezer indicates, not a low system charge, but a restriction within the refrigerant flow lines. This typically occurs when oil from the compressor is picked up by the internal compressor pump and rides with the refrigerant until it reaches the evaporator section (freezer). The cold temperature in the freezer section causes the oil to separate, coagulate like jello and stick to the inner refrigerant tube lining. Think clogged arteries in our body! Once one drop sticks, others that follow do the same, in the same place, until the line becomes restricted and the refrigerant cannot flow. While this is not normal, it certainly is a common occurrence, especially if a unit has been transported on its side or back, then set upright and plugged in without adequate time for the oil in the system to drain back to the compressor.
The repair for this is to get the restriction to pass through the system. The method for doing this is to apply heat. Follow these steps, then let me know where you are with it:
1. Turn the refrigerator off by unplugging it. Open the door and allow the system to completely defrost and all components to come to room temperature.
2. Once the system has completely thawed, place a work lamp with a 100 watt bulb, on the bottom freezer floor, turn the work lamp on. If the work lamp has a protection cage around it, remove the cage so that the bulb comes in direct contact with the metal of the freezer floor.
3. PLUG THE REFRIEGRATOR IN AND TURN THE REFRIEGRATION SYSTEM ON. THIS STEP IS CRITICAL TO THE PROCESS! The heat from the 100 watt bulb with transfer to the freezer section, preventing the refrigerant from producing cold. Additionally, the heat will cause the coagulated oil to liquefy. The pressure from the compressor will force the liquefied oil through the system allowing it to re-deposit itself in the compressor where it belongs.
4. Leave the light bulb in place and turned on for approx 2-3 hours with the refrigerator door closed. This allows the maximum amount of heat to build up and transfer to the freezer section.
5. After the allotted time has passed, remove the work lamp, turn the refrigerator off and allow the entire system to equalize and return to room temperature. This should take about 2 hours.
6. After the system has equalized, turn the refrigerator back on and keep the door closed. Allow the system to run for 24 hours and re-stabilize.
After you have accomplished all of the above steps, check the frost pattern in the freezer section, noting where it previously began and ended, compared to where it now begins and ends. A normal flow frost pattern will begin in the back and move evenly to the front. In the event your frost pattern has moved forward, but still seems to end abruptly, then repeat the above process to attempt to move the remaining restriction further through the line.
********************
Nice, that is another way to accomplish what you have done with the heat gun. Those small ceramic heaters shaped like a "cube" also work well for this.
Thanks for sharing the info from John. He has been helpful to several of us here as well.
Sincerely, David
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