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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 12, 2018 4:32:13 GMT
Hey kids, don't try this at home, unless you happen to have a stuck / seized CA Monitor Top.
Thoughts?
Thanks, David
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Post by ajc31980 on Nov 12, 2018 10:08:46 GMT
Ah... hearing that Compressor groan at the beginning ! Kinda hurts the soul. Haha. Very cool that you were able to get it Running ! Gotta love the whole weird Science thing 😁. For a CA with no heater, it sounded rather quiet. That’s hopefully a good sign 😁
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Post by cablehack on Nov 12, 2018 11:59:58 GMT
Great video! I liked the thought you put into your method. I think it's definitely easier on the motor to use a proper phase shifted starting supply, rather than just relying on the small phase shift developed by the resistance of the start winding. BTW, some of the fan cooled GE Scotch Yoke models (CE and CH)also used the compressor motor to run the two phase fan motor.
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Post by ckfan on Nov 12, 2018 13:28:55 GMT
Aww man! I can’t wait to watch this. Ever since you told me that you were going to try this I was very intrigued!
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Post by birkie on Nov 12, 2018 13:30:55 GMT
yaaaaay! This was a really fun video. I loved seeing it literally jump to life.
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Post by solarmike on Nov 12, 2018 15:17:45 GMT
Man that is incredible....
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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 12, 2018 15:51:27 GMT
Ah... hearing that Compressor groan at the beginning ! Kinda hurts the soul. Haha. Very cool that you were able to get it Running ! Gotta love the whole weird Science thing 😁. For a CA with no heater, it sounded rather quiet. That’s hopefully a good sign 😁 Yeah, I know that feeling.. there's nothing worse than coming into the room after being out for a few hours, and hearing that humming and overload click off... and not knowing how long it's been doing that or why....
As for this CA, I put a heater in it and it's been warming all night. Later today I'll start it up and let it run a while to see how it behaves.
Great video! I liked the thought you put into your method. I think it's definitely easier on the motor to use a proper phase shifted starting supply, rather than just relying on the small phase shift developed by the resistance of the start winding. BTW, some of the fan cooled GE Scotch Yoke models (CE and CH)also used the compressor motor to run the two phase fan motor. Good to know about the fan cooled SY machines using this method to run the fan motor. It saved the cost of a fan capacitor, as well as making the motor smaller for a given power; than something like a shaded-pole fan motor.
I was trying to begin with more "gentle" methods; and build up to more and more forceful methods, so as to learn as much as possible. There is a physical limit to how much torque an induction motor can make, because the stator and rotor cores only can contain so much magnetic flux. The winding is limited by the level of heat generated burning the insulation. As long as the power is not energized for more than an instant, it can take a lot of amps and remain undamaged.
The torque is developed the instant the power turns on; so if a few brief jolts don't free it up, there is no need to keep trying that method. If the 2-phase 240 didn't do the trick, I was going to bake the compressor overnight at about 150°F and try again. If that was unsuccessful, then use transformers and step-up the phase shifted power to incrementally higher and higher voltage, until she either turns or burns.
Aww man! I can’t wait to watch this. Ever since you told me that you were going to try this I was very intrigued! Can't wait to hear what you think about it! yaaaaay! This was a really fun video. I loved seeing it literally jump to life. Thanks, happy you found it fun! It was interesting, not knowing what the outcome would be! Man that is incredible.... Thanks Mike! Sometimes the Get A Bigger Hammer approach works!
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Post by Travis on Nov 12, 2018 16:56:35 GMT
David,
I have the control and relay in a box here. I've stopped trying to save them all as few seem to want to make a drive to pick them up. That one came to me stalled. The cabinet had more damage in person than I had thought, so I parted it. The door lived on and a member here got the little trim piece on the header he needed. I had kept the unit for its MF and possibly the intact evaporator.
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Post by coldspaces on Nov 12, 2018 18:05:22 GMT
Great work as usual. I had never thought of using a motor like that to create a phase shift. Thanks for posting the work!
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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 12, 2018 20:05:02 GMT
David, I have the control and relay in a box here. I've stopped trying to save them all as few seem to want to make a drive to pick them up. That one came to me stalled. The cabinet had more damage in person than I had thought, so I parted it. The door lived on and a member here got the little trim piece on the header he needed. I had kept the unit for its MF and possibly the intact evaporator. Hi Travis, please don't feel bad about giving up on it. You saved its parts for other; as well as keeping the cooling unit in your junk area instead of scrapping it. No shame in that. At the time, it was seized and your equipment would not wake it up. Great work as usual. I had never thought of using a motor like that to create a phase shift. Thanks for posting the work!
You're welcome! I will post a wiring diagram of how it was hooked up, when I have time to.
EDIT:
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Post by ckfan on Nov 12, 2018 21:44:56 GMT
Just watched the video. That was so cool! Makes me wonder how many CAs and DRs could be saved with this method. I’ve seen both get stuck like that. Also, I love the sad face on the sick compressor. I guess now it’s a happy and surprised compressor!
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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 12, 2018 23:06:09 GMT
Just watched the video. That was so cool! Makes me wonder how many CAs and DRs could be saved with this method. I’ve seen both get stuck like that. Also, I love the sad face on the sick compressor. I guess now it’s a happy and surprised compressor!
Hi Ray. Figured the sad face would get noticed! I have a feeling this method would force most compressors to run, assuming the motor winding isn't already burned. Now, as to whether it lives afterwards, would depend on the reason it was seized up in the first place. The CA's seem to do it from prolonged running with high NCG pressures. If it is relieved of the NCG's immediately after getting running, it may be none the worse for wear. If the unit has really suffered mechanical damage, then it would probably be a matter of time before it failed again.
With the DR, I would fear the seizure was due to moisture-induced corrosion. I would want to remove the SO2 and evacuate it overnight to be sure it's not corroding internally.
Some followup!
Bleeding NCG's. That is a vinyl tube of AB oil, to see the bubbles and keep air from drawing back in.
Power demand after bleeding NCG's:
Motor current after bleeding NCG's:
Thermometer not accurate because top of the probe isn't covered, and this is in an open environment not a cabinet. It was showing 20°F but I am sure the actual evaporator was colder.
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Post by solarmike on Nov 13, 2018 0:22:01 GMT
I learned a lot today, Many thanks
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Post by ajc31980 on Nov 13, 2018 8:47:35 GMT
Wow. Holy cow ! On the amount of NCGs. I’d say mine usually goes into a vacuum after it’s been off around 15 to 20 min. Maybe a little longer if it’s good and hot. It’s sounds happy ! Now. Kind of like mine on a good day lol. Very happy to see you were able to get it up and running again. 😁
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Post by ckfan on Nov 13, 2018 13:38:14 GMT
I’m glad that it’s behaving now. The only thing that I’m wondering about is the way that you bled off the gasses. In the service manual it says to bleed slowly for 3 minutes and then close it off and wait for 1 minute and then repeat. Otherwise it states that you will run the risk of bleeding off refrigerant. Did you ever get a whiff of methyl formate? To me it seems like the rate you were bleeding at seemed much higher than what I normally do as well. I’ve purposely opened the purge screw wide for a second just to see what it smelled like and it did release MF. I’m just curious if it is possible with a machine with such a buildup as yours had to bleed it faster by skipping the waiting step or if it is truly necessary like GE says it is. I don’t want to cause an argument. Im genuinely curious. I know that when I bled my original CA it took 3 tries and took hours each time. If that time can be cut down with no loss of refrigerant, im all for it. I bet my machine was close to locking up because it sounded absolutely terrible and was drawing close to the same wattage as yours was.
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