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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 3:28:24 GMT
I have an additional question about the coiled up capillary tube in the back. is it normal after the refrigerator is running for a good while.. over an hour to have condensation on it? I just noticed it . Thanks AJ
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Post by ckfan on Jun 29, 2018 11:12:54 GMT
I’ve never seen a capillary tube with condensation on it. That’s strange. Gill, what do you make of that? Seems like to me that it should never get cool enough to condense moisture from the air.
Also, your shopping list sounds about right. It will get very expensive very quickly. That’s why I really wish that you had a professional near you who would be willing to tackle this quite easy problem. Really all you would have to provide them is money and that service valve kit. Those plastic caps have to be cut off with a knife I believe.
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 11:46:16 GMT
I’ve never seen a capillary tube with condensation on it. That’s strange. Gill, what do you make of that? Seems like to me that it should never get cool enough to condense moisture from the air. Also, your shopping list sounds about right. It will get very expensive very quickly. That’s why I really wish that you had a professional near you who would be willing to tackle this quite easy problem. Really all you would have to provide them is money and that service valve kit. Those plastic caps have to be cut off with a knife I believe. Thanks for the feed back. And yes I definitely wish someone local would work on it for me. I’ve giving up and moved on from that. I spent half the night watching YouTube vids . And re-reading all the past comments in this thread. It’s like a crash course in refrigerators. Lol I’m off work till the 9th do to the holiday shutdown ! Yay! so now is the perfect time for me to tackle this. I have to say that I’m some what tempted to try switching it over to R152A seeing as R12 is so darn expensive. And my luck the cans will get damaged during shipping. As far as buying a pump and the gages. I’m sure they will get used again at some point in time. If not by me. It’ll be someone els. The valve kit will probably become part of the my vintage stash of goodies lol. Also was it ever determined if that valve kit on eBay was the correct one ? I read back through and didn’t see that anyone ever confirmed it. I know you weren’t sure if it had the correct key ? Thanks AJ.
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Post by icebox on Jun 29, 2018 11:50:57 GMT
I have an additional question about the coiled up capillary tube in the back. is it normal after the refrigerator is running for a good while.. over an hour to have condensation on it? I just noticed it . Thanks AJ Interesting, the last part of the capillary tube may get cold, it would be interesting to see if there is a point where it suddenly gets colder - this could be a restriction. Like the others have said I think maybe the point has come to adding a bit of refrigerant and see if the frost line moves. Have you tried the leak detector with the compressor off? You're more likely to find a leak on the low side (evaporator side) with it off (evaporator defrosted and the compressor warm) and more likely to find a leak on the high side (condenser side) with the unit running. Thanks for the uploads of photo's and videos - lot's to look through, sorry didn't get a much time yesterday.
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 12:09:33 GMT
I have an additional question about the coiled up capillary tube in the back. is it normal after the refrigerator is running for a good while.. over an hour to have condensation on it? I just noticed it . Thanks AJ Interesting, the last part of the capillary tube may get cold, it would be interesting to see if there is a point where it suddenly gets colder - this could be a restriction. Like the others have said I think maybe the point has come to adding a bit of refrigerant and see if the frost line moves. Have you tried the leak detector with the compressor off? You're more likely to find a leak on the low side (evaporator side) with it off (evaporator defrosted and the compressor warm) and more likely to find a leak on the high side (condenser side) with the unit running. Thanks for the uploads of photo's and videos - lot's to look through, sorry didn't get a much time yesterday. I haven’t gone over things in that combination with the leak detector. But I will definitely give it a try later on this afternoon. And no apologies necessary. I’m thank full for you taking the time took look over the pictures and videos when ever you have the time :-). AJ.
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 29, 2018 14:26:46 GMT
I’ve never seen a capillary tube with condensation on it. That’s strange. Gill, what do you make of that? Seems like to me that it should never get cool enough to condense moisture from the air. Also, your shopping list sounds about right. It will get very expensive very quickly. That’s why I really wish that you had a professional near you who would be willing to tackle this quite easy problem. Really all you would have to provide them is money and that service valve kit. Those plastic caps have to be cut off with a knife I believe. Thanks for the feed back. And yes I definitely wish someone local would work on it for me. I’ve giving up and moved on from that. I spent half the night watching YouTube vids . And re-reading all the past comments in this thread. It’s like a crash course in refrigerators. Lol I’m off work till the 9th do to the holiday shutdown ! Yay! so now is the perfect time for me to tackle this. I have to say that I’m some what tempted to try switching it over to R152A seeing as R12 is so darn expensive. And my luck the cans will get damaged during shipping. As far as buying a pump and the gages. I’m sure they will get used again at some point in time. If not by me. It’ll be someone els. The valve kit will probably become part of the my vintage stash of goodies lol. Also was it ever determined if that valve kit on eBay was the correct one ? I read back through and didn’t see that anyone ever confirmed it. I know you weren’t sure if it had the correct key ? Thanks AJ.
Hi AJ, it seems you've got quite a lot of good feedback on your problem yesterday. Sorry I was tied up all day and not online. The pictures are very helpful as usual. As ckfan stated, it will get costly in a hurry to buy all the equipment to service this refrigerator. I know this very well, having had to buy specialty tools for several of my projects and use them only once. But it may be worth it to you - and probably will be!
As for the service kit and the ports on the refrigerator; I recently fought this battle myself (for the first time) on a CK. The kit I received was 99.9% complete, missing only a few seals. It's very important to identify where seals will be necessary as there are several pieces of the kit that have to be assembled together. I'm basing this on the assumption that your refrigerator would have the same style of service port as the CK does. Would be nice if the plastic were removed from the ports so that they are visible in the pictures. I had the one major benefit that I was working on a machine that had already lost its charge (mostly) and needed to be opened up and a massive leak repaired. So I had nothing to lose.
In the case of the CK, it had a rusted service port. The hermetic service kit seals against a flat surface at the bottom of the port, above the threaded boss. I was able to clean the rust off with a Dremel and wire brush, but it left a slightly pitted surface. It just so happened that a transmission seal left over from a past car repair was the right size to fit over the stem and make a perfect seal. Because it's rubber, it conformed to the pitted surface.
There was then another seal between the main body of the service kit and the adapter for the CK Monitor Top. This was missing from my kit. I believe it was originally a soft metal washer. I was able to locate an o-ring which fit in this area and sealed. This is, however a dicey method to use. The o-ring has no support on the inner diameter, and could very easily "pucker inwards" if the parts of the kit were rotated after it was tightened. Also there is no "stop" to the tightening, so the o-ring could be crushed to pieces if you tighten the parts too firmly.
Another potential area of concern with a used service kit is the bonnet packing area. On mine, it has a graphite-looking packing in there. I was able to tighten the bonnet and create a leak-free seal, but the stem of the service kit seems somewhat worn in this area.
As a sanity-check, you can assemble the service kit to the port, but don't open the port of the refrigerator yet. Before opening the port, use the vacuum pump and gauges set to evacuate the gauges, hose, and the service kit. Valve-in the vacuum and see that it holds for an hour or so. That will ensure the service kit is sealed up and properly mated to the port.
As for R152A, I am a true believer in its use as a modern replacement for R12. It has never failed me. I have at least 5 family vehicles with R12 systems that are using it. They all outperform the original R12, according to "how cold the A/C feels" and how high of a fan speed is needed to keep me comfortable. Certain things are different with car A/C than these refrigerators, though. In the car A/C it is easy to replace the mineral oil with an oil that fully mixes with R152A.
With a hermetic motor refrigerator, the oil is what it is and you can't very well change it. I have only used R152A in two refrigerators. One is a Frigidaire Meter-Miser unit; and the other is the CK Monitor Top. Both of them work exceptionally well. The Frigidaire has been running since early March (about 4 months) and it sounds the same today as it did the first day I started it up. If any one would have died it would have been this one. It was left open to the environment in southern Louisiana, for months with a punctured coil. The compressor was stuck and took extra means to get it to free up and run. I soldered up the puncture and evacuated it for overnight with heaters on it. Then charged it and it's been my daily shop fridge since then.
The CK was more recently given an R152A charge in place of its SO2 charge. It's been running about a month (or so) without any signs of deterioration.
You may wonder where I am going with all this bloviating? Bear with me! Any time you make any change to a system that has been working in a stable mode of operation for many years, you chance causing some sort of upset to it. While R152A has been shown to work well in Frigidaire Meter-Miser, and GE Scotch Yoke machines (there are others besides the CK I worked on) - putting it in your fridge would be the first test, and it would be experimental. It would likely work like a dream. But you would have to understand that it is a change in the operation of the system and it might prove to be incompatible.
Ideally, it would be best to stick with R12, however that's maybe impractical. I have a moral problem playing into the money game with R12, and chose to research alternatives back when this game began.
In the case of your 47 GE, it would seem that you will run into one of two scenarios. Either adding refrigerant will fix it, and you can then close the service port and it will run for another 30 years. Or; it won't fix it and you will have to remove the charge and make repairs. If it ends up being a make repairs issue, you'll need a way to recover the existing R12. Recovery machines are costly and not often available used. If this scenario plays out, you may have to get a service company to recover the charge. They would probably do this if you let them have the R12 to resell. If this comes to be the path of your repairs, that would be a good time to try R152A.
Thankfully we have some very well seasoned professionals contributing here; who are into this as a passion, as well as a means to a paycheck. I sure wish there were more like-minded folks in the industry at large. A lot of it is my opinion and I sincerely hope it doesn't upset anyone. I'm looking out for ways to sustain our hobby in the hostile climate we work in.
I have an additional question about the coiled up capillary tube in the back. is it normal after the refrigerator is running for a good while.. over an hour to have condensation on it? I just noticed it . Thanks AJ
It seems like the capillary tube is either inside the suction line, or soldered to the side of it along the length of it? The Frigidaire units are made this way and there is a lot of heat transfer between the cold gas in the suction line and the liquid in the cap tube. It is very possible that the cold temperature of the cap tube at that area is due to this effect and not a restriction. I would think that a restriction would cause one point to have a definite temperature change that you could feel.
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 21:32:03 GMT
I have an additional question about the coiled up capillary tube in the back. is it normal after the refrigerator is running for a good while.. over an hour to have condensation on it? I just noticed it . Thanks AJ Interesting, the last part of the capillary tube may get cold, it would be interesting to see if there is a point where it suddenly gets colder - this could be a restriction. Like the others have said I think maybe the point has come to adding a bit of refrigerant and see if the frost line moves. Have you tried the leak detector with the compressor off? You're more likely to find a leak on the low side (evaporator side) with it off (evaporator defrosted and the compressor warm) and more likely to find a leak on the high side (condenser side) with the unit running. Thanks for the uploads of photo's and videos - lot's to look through, sorry didn't get a much time yesterday. Hi The capillary tube where it’s coiled just seems to feel cold or just colder then it would be if the machine was off sitting at room temperature. I noticed today when turning it on. that coiled part of the capillary tube starts to get frosty but then the frost goes away after The evaporator starts to frost up.
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Post by icebox on Jun 29, 2018 21:51:52 GMT
OK, that doesn't sound unusual. I'm thinking more and more it's low on refrigerant, and I guess either way you're going to have to break into it. Some good comments about new refrigerant options, lots more experiance than I have with substituting different ones. I'll try and think of anything else you can try.
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 22:05:37 GMT
Interesting, the last part of the capillary tube may get cold, it would be interesting to see if there is a point where it suddenly gets colder - this could be a restriction. Like the others have said I think maybe the point has come to adding a bit of refrigerant and see if the frost line moves. Have you tried the leak detector with the compressor off? You're more likely to find a leak on the low side (evaporator side) with it off (evaporator defrosted and the compressor warm) and more likely to find a leak on the high side (condenser side) with the unit running. Thanks for the uploads of photo's and videos - lot's to look through, sorry didn't get a much time yesterday. Hi The capillary tube where it’s coiled just seems to feel cold or just colder then it would be if the machine was off sitting at room temperature. I noticed today when turning it on. that coiled part of the capillary tube starts to get frosty but then the frost goes away after The evaporator starts to frost up. I did get chance to go over the evaporator with the gas detector as you recommended. It seems to be intermediately pick things up. On the low setting it doesn’t pick anything up at all if you put it on the medium setting it intermediately picks things up if you set it to the highest setting it goes off with me standing in the middle of the room. As a “control” I tried meter out on my five-year-old Frigidaire refrigerator on the medium setting and it didn’t pick anything up and I tried it on two different window ACs that I have and it didn’t pick anything up. So it may possibly be an accurate read. I tried putting soapy water on the lines in the evaporator and didn’t see any bubbles actually I tried spraying down the entire evaporator and couldn’t find anything. Here is a pic of the meter I’m using. It’s fairly basic. Cost was around $50
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 29, 2018 22:16:42 GMT
I did get chance to go over the evaporator with the gas detector as you recommended. It seems to be intermediately pick things up. On the low setting it doesn’t pick anything up at all if you put it on the medium setting it intermediately picks things up if you set it to the highest setting it goes off with me standing in the middle of the room. Hi AJ. It sounds like you may be onto something. Does your detector have a "reset" or "zero" feature? This is handy when you are trying to "home in" on a leak. For instance, it's beeping like mad and you are 6 feet from the refrigerator. Press the "zero" button. Then move closer and wand around the unit. You may find it goes off in the vicinity of the evaporator. While it's going off, press the "zero" button again. Then keep moving around closer and closer until you locate a point where it consistently sounds. These meters are amazingly sensitive. They can detect a leak which takes years to cause a system to start malfunctioning. Since there is gas in the room and it goes off in the middle of the room, try to ventilate the room well, and blow a strong fan into the fridge to clear the interior of possible gas traces. Then try the above process of zeroing in on the leak. Also, I hope my explanation of the service kit wasn't too confusing. I had a few too many cups of coffee this morning maybe LOL!
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 29, 2018 22:31:20 GMT
I did get chance to go over the evaporator with the gas detector as you recommended. It seems to be intermediately pick things up. On the low setting it doesn’t pick anything up at all if you put it on the medium setting it intermediately picks things up if you set it to the highest setting it goes off with me standing in the middle of the room. Hi AJ. It sounds like you may be onto something. Does your detector have a "reset" or "zero" feature? This is handy when you are trying to "home in" on a leak. For instance, it's beeping like mad and you are 6 feet from the refrigerator. Press the "zero" button. Then move closer and wand around the unit. You may find it goes off in the vicinity of the evaporator. While it's going off, press the "zero" button again. Then keep moving around closer and closer until you locate a point where it consistently sounds. These meters are amazingly sensitive. They can detect a leak which takes years to cause a system to start malfunctioning. Since there is gas in the room and it goes off in the middle of the room, try to ventilate the room well, and blow a strong fan into the fridge to clear the interior of possible gas traces. Then try the above process of zeroing in on the leak. Also, I hope my explanation of the service kit wasn't too confusing. I had a few too many cups of coffee this morning maybe LOL! Thanks turbo. I was just reading over that post again:-). It’s totally fine . I was watching your videos on the monitor top last night and that’s what Kind of gave me the idea of R152a. On a possible brighter note I need lots of positive vibes for this one! A friend of mine referred me to a repair company and insisted I try calling them so I broke down and called them. I got almost what’s become the typical response and then the woman on the phone Surprisingly told me to call a different company. So I called and actually chatted with a woman on the phone for quite a while it...... seems that it’s her husband that does the refrigeration work. She started to give me the usual about R 12 being really hard to find and if it’s something other than it being low on refrigerant you can’t find parts etc. etc. and then for whatever reason she told me that they have a private stash of our 12 and that no they definitely wouldn’t part with any of it because they use it in their vintage cars. So I compared my refrigerator to their cars that they restore and I asked her to look at it from that angle. I explained that it was in very good condition and you know it came with the original ice tray’s and the instruction manual and seen that it was really well taken care of. And that in my opinion it would be a damn sin! for it to go to scrap. and I also mentioned about the R152. She said that she’d heard that it works really well but they have not actually tried it on anything yet. At that point the conversation kind of changed a little she said that her husband was out on a service call and that she or he will give me a call back later on this evening after he gets back. So I’m really hoping to hear something good ! :-)
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 29, 2018 22:45:05 GMT
.... I was watching your videos on the monitor top last night and that’s what Kind of gave me the idea of R152a. That's cool. Glad it was helpful. This is good news! Hope this turns out to be a good lead for you! When trying to persuade someone to help, it always helps to relate your situation to something they care about. You did a very good job of that, it seems!
Don't tell them this - but R152A seems to work better than R12 in cars. Heresy I know! Keep it quiet LOL!
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 30, 2018 1:06:23 GMT
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Post by turbokinetic on Jun 30, 2018 3:04:45 GMT
That looks like a winner! It would be good to cut the plastic off your ports or have someone else confirm this since I haven't worked on your model and can't see the fittings. Unfortunately, that set of gauges is only for automotive R134A fittings. In this country there are some politically motivated engineering designs around air conditioning. The automotive gauges use the Acme threaded fitting. You can often get gauge sets made overseas, where politics play less of a factor, that will have adapters to use with both designs.
This set of gauges has the SAE flare fittings built in, and comes with the Acme adapter for R134A and the automotive quick couplers as well. You could use it with virtually all refrigerant systems. www.amazon.com/OrionMotorTech-Diagnostic-Manifold-Refrigerants-Couplers/dp/B019W5LIVS/
That is a winner! It has both the automotive Acme and the rest-of-the-planet SAE flare fittings. See the tee piece where the hoses connect? Just keep a cap on the one you aren't using. That would work, but it's married to only the small cans of R12 and can't do R134A nor can it do R152A cans. The side tapper is a much better option. This one linked here has the ability to do R12 (or R152A - the cans are same size) as well as R134A cans. www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-5020-R-134a-Refrigerant-Punch/dp/B01DUUP4KC
The one you linked below may be similar, but that link isn't working for me.
Hope this helps! Sincerely, David
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Post by ajc31980 on Jun 30, 2018 8:53:35 GMT
That looks like a winner! It would be good to cut the plastic off your ports or have someone else confirm this since I haven't worked on your model and can't see the fittings. Unfortunately, that set of gauges is only for automotive R134A fittings. In this country there are some politically motivated engineering designs around air conditioning. The automotive gauges use the Acme threaded fitting. You can often get gauge sets made overseas, where politics play less of a factor, that will have adapters to use with both designs.
This set of gauges has the SAE flare fittings built in, and comes with the Acme adapter for R134A and the automotive quick couplers as well. You could use it with virtually all refrigerant systems. www.amazon.com/OrionMotorTech-Diagnostic-Manifold-Refrigerants-Couplers/dp/B019W5LIVS/
That is a winner! It has both the automotive Acme and the rest-of-the-planet SAE flare fittings. See the tee piece where the hoses connect? Just keep a cap on the one you aren't using. That would work, but it's married to only the small cans of R12 and can't do R134A nor can it do R152A cans. The side tapper is a much better option. This one linked here has the ability to do R12 (or R152A - the cans are same size) as well as R134A cans. www.amazon.com/Enviro-Safe-5020-R-134a-Refrigerant-Punch/dp/B01DUUP4KC
The one you linked below may be similar, but that link isn't working for me.
Hope this helps! Sincerely, David
Thank you for going over my list ! :-) I did get the plastic removed from the ports. There’s a bolt? screwed into them I’m thinking I’ve seen it’s ok to remove that bolt. But I’m not going to do so until someone confirms it . I don’t think I’ve mentioned it . But the fridge is sitting in my dinner room. I have a rather small kitchen and found that life is easier if I keep the refrigerator just inside the door way between the kitchen and dining room. So technically have two refrigerators in my dining room right now LOL. I don’t have the kind of basement that’s suitable for working on much of anything LOL. So I don’t really want to accidentally fill my dining room with Freon. I do have a old school 20 inch window fan running in exhaust mode all summer long pulling air through the house . So not like I would get gassed out. But still. Haha. Also I’ve been looking at different cans of R12 on eBay. I’ve seen some listed as pure or virgin and others listed as oil charge . Which kind do I want ? Does it make a difference? Thanks AJ
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