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Post by ckfan on Jul 18, 2016 15:56:14 GMT
Ok, so I have been looking up "specific heat" properties for various liquids and have found something surprising. The mineral oil that I am currently using has a quite low thermal mass when compared to other commonly found liquids.
Product Specific Heat - cp (kJ/kg K) (Btu/lb oF) Alcohol, propyl 2.37 0.57 Oil, mineral 1.67 0.4 Water, fresh 4.19 1
I was thinking of switching the mineral oil out with either water or propyl alcohol. Obviously I would be making the situation worse by using either of those substances because they have a higher specific heat than the mineral oil that I am currently using. There are many other liquids in the list but (almost) all of them have a higher specific heat than mineral oil which means that they would react to heat inputs more slowly. Mercury is listed at a paltry .03(BTU/LB) per degree Fahrenheit of temperature rise. Maybe I just need to go hog wild and put some mercury in a jar where I will keep my food!
Seriously though, I'm beginning to wonder if I should just clip the end of the capillary tube to the evaporator again AND submerge the rest of it in the mineral oil since clipping the tube to the evaporator helped it reach reasonable cut out temperatures before.
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Post by cablehack on Jul 18, 2016 23:12:00 GMT
I'm thinking that if I use a different liquid in the jar it may help. I'm just trying to think of what that may be. Water? Alcohol? Not really sure. I think I am going to experiment and figure out which liquid gives the best "thermal mass" to have it cycle right. Brine as used in a DR evaporator?
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Post by ckfan on Jul 19, 2016 19:31:05 GMT
I'm thinking that if I use a different liquid in the jar it may help. I'm just trying to think of what that may be. Water? Alcohol? Not really sure. I think I am going to experiment and figure out which liquid gives the best "thermal mass" to have it cycle right. Brine as used in a DR evaporator? I actually thought of using brine in the jar. However... Product Specific Heat - cp (kJ/kg K) (Btu/lb oF) Water, sea 36oF 3.93 0.938 At .938 BTU/Lb per degree F, "sea water" is only slightly less than normal water. Both have a much higher specific heat than the mineral oil that I am using. As just another update from last night... I went home and took the capillary tube and attatched it to the evaporator plate just before it went into the jar filled with oil. It didn't work. It stopped way too soon and then tried to cycle back on almost immediately which caused the compressor to stall and the overload to trip. I then removed that section of tube from the evaporator and just placed it close by the plate. This seems a lot better. The fridge cycle times are pretty good, almost a bit on the long side but I won't complain. The temperature however is still too cold, although it is closer than I have gotten it before. It gets down to about 27 and rises to 35. I think if I just barely let the tube touch the evaporator it should "sense" the cold better while still not sensing the plate warm up too suddenly and cause it to short cycle. I just wish this thermostat had more adjustment to it!
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Post by ckfan on Jul 29, 2016 13:57:36 GMT
Well, it has been a long and arduous road but...here we are. I don't want to call it too soon but I think that this Norge is finally ready for service. I finally broke down and ordered a 3rd (not counting the original) thermostat. This time I chose a very neat digital controller. It is a Ranco ETC-111000-000 controller that I purchased from a site that installed a plug and outlet on it. Usually you have to connect your own line cords to it. I thought that I would go the pre wired route though because this Norge already has a plug wired onto the compressor lead. That's right it came that way from the factory so you could test the compressor without shorting the leads from the (presumably faulty) thermostat! All I had to do was plug the controller in and then plug the compressor lead into the controller. As far as the fridge light goes, you just plug the original cord into the other outlet and you are good to go. Pretty cool right? Well, it gets even better. The temperature probe obviously had to be run to the inside of the fridge cabinet. Now normally you would have to rig up a way to do this without it looking too unsightly or interfering with the door. This is where it gets good. Since the evaporator plate inside the fridge section gets defrosted every off cycle there was a drain hole at the bottom of the cabinet where the crisper drawers are. Of course the probe had no problem going through this. Are you kidding me?! I then ran the cord up to the back wall where the plastic cover for the drawers meets with the wall. I shoved the probe into a spot there. My thinking was that this spot would be the warmest in the fridge (furthest away from the evaporator) and it is also shielded from sudden temperature swings (like opening the door) because it is nestled in between the wall and the plastic and is not visible unless you take the drawers out. It is working very well so far. I had to turn the temperature up because the difference in temperature between the top and bottom seems pretty pronounced. However, now the cabinet varies between 35 and 40 degrees. Very nice. It also DOES NOT SHORT CYCLE! To say that I'm happy would be an understatement. No joke, I probably have tried 20 different combinations of 3 thermostats (including the original) and positions of the capillary tube. All of the various attempts had problems. The secret to the success of this newest controller is simple. It is digital and you can program it for a WIDE range of circumstances. You can have it either on cool or heat mode. You can set it for Celsius or Fahrenheit. It has a temperature set range of -30 to 300 degrees Fahrenheit. It also has a differential setting (the difference between the set point and what temperature it will kick back on at) of 1 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit. Absolutely crazy. You could use this thing for a freezer, a fridge, a room (heating or cooling). The possibilities are endless. It even has a back light for the digital display! It usually will display the inside temp as long as you aren't programming it. As long as what you are plugging in doesn't exceed the limits of the relay inside the controller you are golden. I'm sure there are other controllers out there that do just as well but for me, this thing looks to be built like a tank and hopefully will make this fridge last a good long time. It has no reason not to. I would honestly suggest this controller in a situation where a broken thermostat exists but you can still get the thermostat to turn "on". Simply plug the fridge into this magic box and find a way to get the probe inside and you are good to go. I think it would be perfect for a monitor top if it needed a thermostat and no original parts could be sourced (I know, we all love the "clunk!" sound of the originals. I know I do). Travis already replaced the start relay with a Supco solid state one (probably the reason why the thing is still alive after all of the short cycles I've put it through by testing different set ups). I now have a "Pavlovian" response when I hear the loud click of an overload. I respond by saying bad words. The wiring is also impeccable. Even the door gaskets are in great shape. I did have trouble with the freezer gasket not making proper contact. I'm assuming age has compressed it. The strike adjustment was out of room so my friend Drew had a brilliant idea. Why not remove the screw that is hitting the stop and move it forward a tiny bit and then tighten the remaining screw down good and tight. It worked! Now the door seals great, still closes properly, and no excess frost is developing. Before the fix, huge amounts of frost would gather in one little area on the top of the freezer section. Now it looks normal and passes the dollar bill test! I can't tell you all how happy I am. I really just want to get this dialed in to where I am completely satisfied with how it cycles. I may not have to change anything but I haven't gotten a chance to look closely at the temperature and cycle times. It looks extremely promising though. This fridge will take a spot of pride as our main kitchen fridge. Since I have 2 roommates that is no small task. I hope that we can cram everything in this cute guy. As I told Travis yesterday, "I will not let this fridge short cycle into the night! It will soldier on!" To view the photos in this post, please follow this link: drive.google.com/open?id=0B8_jm7K-ahMaak9uczVILXVKQkU
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Post by ckfan on Aug 2, 2016 13:59:11 GMT
Quick update on the Norge. I timed the cycles last night. I almost fell asleep doing so! The temperature swings between 38-34 degrees F. The on time was 23 minutes 46 seconds. The off time was an astounding 48 minutes 37 seconds. Not too bad! I opened the door right as it cycled off and held it open, like an idiot would, for 2 minutes straight. The temp probe for the digital thermostat rose a few degrees and was close to turning the machine on again but once I closed the door it settled down. I decided to decrease the set temp 2 degrees and increase the differential 2 degrees as well. Now I don't think that it will ever have a chance to short cycle. Even if someone is just standing there holding the door open. I'm pretty darn sure I can call this done now. I'm defrosting some ground beef in it now actually. Next step will be to touch up some light scuffing that happened during the move (sorry Travis!) and move it into place in the kitchen. My roommates are going to have to get used to not keeping old food around...there won't be room for it!
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Post by ckfan on Aug 3, 2016 14:59:35 GMT
I'm calling it! The Norge is done! I transferred all of the food over last night (we need to cut back!). It is now absolutely packed with food! I am going to try and organize and combine stuff tonight. We have 3 containers of mustard, 2 containers of the same feta cheese, etc. Lots of duplicate stuff like that. I woke up this morning and all of the ice was frozen and the fridge temp was 40. I thought that was a bit warm but as soon as I opened the door to get my breakfast out it kicked on. Nice! My roommate already has said that he wouldn't be opposed to kicking the CK back on to provide extra space. I think I may be able to get by without it though if I just organize better. Still, I told my roomie that even with the Norge, CK, and the little Frigidaire running, it won't add up to what that old energy hog used. $6 for the Norge per month. $2.50 (at most) for the CK. $3 for the Frigidaire. Want to know what the old whrilpool used? $12-15 a month depending on how warm it is. Absolutely crazy. Now I am going to make arrangements to get rid of that thing. I kind of want it to go to a good home though. I think I may give it away so that someone can get good use out of it. At any rate, I'm so happy to be using a cool looking and fast cooling fridge in the kitchen now! To view the photos in this post, please follow this link: drive.google.com/open?id=0B8_jm7K-ahMaak9uczVILXVKQkU
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Post by ckfan on Oct 4, 2016 15:58:37 GMT
Well, its time for another update on the Norge Customatic (the fridge that keeps on giving...surprises!). When I went to bed Sunday night it was late and I had just downed a nice glass of Johnnie Walker (The Blue Label Stuff). No, I didn't buy it, my good friend Drew did! We were talking about options for blasting the paint off of my DR1 and having a good time. He always brings over ridiculously expensive whiskey and scotch for me to try out. Why is that worth mentioning? Because when I finally went to bed I was tired and a little liquored up. I could have sworn that I heard that familiar "death click" of the overload on the Norge. I had heard it so many times before when I was messing with the fridge thermostat that I think it will be forever etched in my brain! I just thought I was imagining things and went to bed. If I had been less tired and more sober I would have properly checked it out. Such is life! When I awoke in the morning I was greeted with the thermometer reading a balmy 55 inside. Oh no I thought. What a great thing to wake up to on a Monday morning. Sure enough, not long after that I heard the overload click back on and then click off after a few seconds. I scooted out the fridge and unplugged it. I was fearing the worst. Luckily I already had my little CA form A running since I was doing testing on it. The frost line was just a little above the bottom of the header as you can tell in the attached picture but it quickly rose when I put all of that food in there! I'm glad that I had it running. It was comically full. I put the rest in the CK which is now in the kitchen also. Monitor tops saved the day! I turned on the Frigidaire cold wall which is close by so that we would have more room for our food. I transferred everything over to it last night. THIS IS WHY I HAVE SO MANY FRIDGES!!! At least that is what I keep telling myself. So, what happened? Well, it is quite simple. The original relay on this fridge was replaced with a Supco RO41 relay. The relay was put in the original relay box which sits on the side of the compressor. It is closed up by a removable plate. I'm positive this is what did the relay in. Look at the case of the relay. It is melted beyond recognition. The PTC relay inside got super hot and warped the hell out of the case. It eventually failed and then the start winding didn't get power. This lead to a stalled compressor and next thing you know the overload trips. So, the reason why I am sharing this with you is to tell you how important it is to put your solid state relay in a vented area. Make sure that it isn't going to get too hot or else this could happen to you! Fortunately the compressor seems to be fine. I tested the resistance of the windings and came up with...
18 ohms common to start 5 ohms common to run 21 ohms start to run No measurable leakage to ground from any terminal. I have a cheapo analog meter so the readings are probably not spot on.
So, no harm done overall. I have a new part on the way, should be in by next week. The cold wall should be up to the challenge even though it will be weird to grab food from the laundry room!
Oh, and don't disregard warning signs coming from your beloved antique appliance...even when you have a bottle of expensive scotch show up on your doorstep!
To view the photos in this post, please follow this link: drive.google.com/open?id=0B8_jm7K-ahMaak9uczVILXVKQkU
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Post by icebox on Oct 9, 2016 16:51:17 GMT
That's the reason I have so many fridges! Glad the compressor is ok, hope you get it working again soon.
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Post by ckfan on Oct 9, 2016 20:24:07 GMT
It is actually up and running again. Smooth as ever. Just had to put the new relay on. The new one gets plenty hot where the thermistor is. Just goes to show you that it really is important to take note of any requirements for a machine or part. Even though the box said nothing about heat. We will see how long it lasts.
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Post by silvius5 on May 5, 2017 16:14:17 GMT
Im having a hard time finding a place to order a thermostat for my 1957 Norge. Is there a specific website?
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Post by ckfan on May 5, 2017 16:31:03 GMT
After all of the trouble I had trying to make thermostats work on my Norge I would suggest that you pick up a digital control thermostat instead. If your Norge is like mine it will be super easy to install. If you are interested I can find the brand that I ended up using. It works great.
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Post by silvius5 on May 7, 2017 12:39:06 GMT
I really appreciate the response! My husband and I purchased the Norge last week and the fridge just freezes everything. My husband is assuming that is the thermostat? I have already fallen in love with the Norge and intend on fixing her up. Was your electric thermostat as easy to install as it appears the factory one would be?
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Post by ckfan on May 7, 2017 21:34:14 GMT
If the thermostat is freezing everything up there are two possibilities. It is either simply set too cold (what setting is it on?) Or the contacts may be sticking closed. Does it ever turn off?
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Post by silvius5 on May 8, 2017 1:05:27 GMT
Everything freezes no matter the setting. It hasn't been switching off at all. We read (on this forum I think) something about defroster coils...Dont know if that could be something? Are the contacts on the thermostat? We called every refrigerator repair place in our town and recieved mostly laughs when we told them what we had. No help at all! Forgive our ignorance. The plate in the back of the fridge (inside the fridge..looks aluminum?) gets quite a bit of frost on it. Again, thanks for your help!
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Post by ckfan on May 8, 2017 1:32:54 GMT
OK, since it isn't turning off at all your thermostat contacts are getting stuck. I think the easiest thing you could try for the time being would be to give the thermostat a good whack with your hand. Don't hit the plastic housing, hit the metal next to it instead. Give it a good whack with your fist. This MIGHT temporarily get it working again. The fridge would turn off if it works. It would at least buy you some time to order a new thermostat. I'll have to look and see which brand I bought. I am very happy with it.
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