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Post by ckfan on Aug 22, 2017 14:36:05 GMT
I'm seriously excited about this. As an extra bonus this R124 is a direct replacement for R114 which two of my antique Frigidaire models use. Do the Frigidaires rely on the miscibility of R114 for oil return? I don't know much about them. Unusually for an HCFC, R124 is not readily miscible in mineral oil except at higher temperatures (I think something like 114F). They recommend alyklbenzene oil if miscibility is required. Ah, that's a good point. I'm honestly not sure if the oil return would be an issue. I'm not sure if the evaporator has an oil catch so to speak. I do know that it is a cap tube setup. I'm not even sure that the evap is flooded. It sure doesn't sound like it. It's very slow to cool at first and you can't really hear any boiling. |
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 22, 2017 16:24:41 GMT
The R114 frigidaires used rotary compressors (high side shells) -without- any kind of heater. So they have to run for some time before they get warm enough for the refrigerant to move on through the system. So they are slow to start cooling, will look like an undercharge for a considerable while.
They use a sort of centrifugal design to separate the gas from the oil, very little oil leaves the compressor.
I have approximately -zero- experience using R124, but suspect they would return what little oil leaves especially if you overcharged them just slightly, so there was some floodback on each startup. (Those compressors tolerate a bit of liquid refrigerant quite well, that's why they got by without a heater). A bit of frost on the suction line back to the compressor each time it starts should return any oil in the evaporator.
Or you can get adventurous and drain the compressor and replace with AB or whatever oil.
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 23, 2017 3:38:48 GMT
Do the Frigidaires rely on the miscibility of R114 for oil return? I don't know much about them. Unusually for an HCFC, R124 is not readily miscible in mineral oil except at higher temperatures (I think something like 114F). They recommend alyklbenzene oil if miscibility is required. Ah, that's a good point. I'm honestly not sure if the oil return would be an issue. I'm not sure if the evaporator has an oil catch so to speak. I do know that it is a cap tube setup. I'm not even sure that the evap is flooded. It sure doesn't sound like it. It's very slow to cool at first and you can't really hear any boiling. I'm pretty sure that all of the Frigidaire R114 compressors have a proprietary fitting (that no one has the tool for) on the bottom of the compressor. There's a (I think) 7/16 hollow bolt in the center of the fitting that you can drain the oil by removing. Don't even have to remove the compressor. Unless you want to make your life really interesting, remove the charge first-- |
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Post by coldspaces on Aug 23, 2017 3:54:30 GMT
Ah, that's a good point. I'm honestly not sure if the oil return would be an issue. I'm not sure if the evaporator has an oil catch so to speak. I do know that it is a cap tube setup. I'm not even sure that the evap is flooded. It sure doesn't sound like it. It's very slow to cool at first and you can't really hear any boiling. I'm pretty sure that all of the Frigidaire R114 compressors have a proprietary fitting (that no one has the tool for) on the bottom of the compressor. There's a (I think) 7/16 hollow bolt in the center of the fitting that you can drain the oil by removing. Don't even have to remove the compressor. Unless you want to make your life really interesting, remove the charge first-- Tools can sometimes be made. Thanks for the pointer blackhorse, most hermetics don't have an oil drain. |
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 23, 2017 4:36:36 GMT
I'm pretty sure that all of the Frigidaire R114 compressors have a proprietary fitting (that no one has the tool for) on the bottom of the compressor. There's a (I think) 7/16 hollow bolt in the center of the fitting that you can drain the oil by removing. Don't even have to remove the compressor. Unless you want to make your life really interesting, remove the charge first-- Tools can sometimes be made. Thanks for the pointer blackhorse, most hermetics don't have an oil drain. I know; isn't that cool? (I suspect the real purpose was as a high-side access port for evacuation and charging at manufacture). When they went to R12 they put a fitting that takes a different tool near the top of the compressor. |
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Post by birkie on Aug 23, 2017 11:52:18 GMT
Tools can sometimes be made. Thanks for the pointer blackhorse, most hermetics don't have an oil drain. I know; isn't that cool? Reminds me of what my father said to me as a kid: "Man is a tool maker, not just a tool user". |
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 23, 2017 12:14:54 GMT
It's just a hex head bolt. You only need the tool if you want to connect charging hoses to it.
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Post by stlvortac on Aug 24, 2017 13:47:30 GMT
This is great news. Is it worth dumping SO2 if it's never leaked and running fine? In the long term it sounds like R124 will go away with the rest of the HCFC's.
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Post by birkie on Aug 24, 2017 14:50:10 GMT
This is great news. Is it worth dumping SO2 if it's never leaked and running fine? In the long term it sounds like R124 will go away with the rest of the HCFC's. R124 not slated to be banned until 2030, though one never knows what twists and turns could happen to regulations in the intervening decade.... We'll have to see if R124 continues to live up to its initial promise; there several more challenges it needs to pass before calling it, but good reason to be excited! Personally, I'd only change it out for ailing machines that need work, or for systems that will go into an institutional setting (like the wife's office), or to slake my curiosity. |
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 24, 2017 21:44:27 GMT
This is great news. Is it worth dumping SO2 if it's never leaked and running fine? In the long term it sounds like R124 will go away with the rest of the HCFC's. Personally, and speaking only for myself, I'm pretty uncomfortable using SO2 in an occupied space. 1) If something happens (earthquake, fire, flood, break-in, vehicle accident, home renovation, collapse, lightning, gunfire (yes, gunfire; I've had jobs caused by gunfire) and the already top-heavy MT tips over and breaks a tube, people trapped and in distress would be more so. 2) SO2 is already considered by Gov't to be a "hazardous material". We've seen pictures of guys in hazmat suits carting off a CK into a truck. What are the charges (legal and financial) for a "cleanup"? 3) Insurance companies will sue for someone spilling hot coffee. Or talcum powder. How's the pain and suffering for breathing something the general population hasn't smelled in 50 years? And if you charge with R124 and it never leaks, R124 going away in some decades won't be an issue. If it does, it's no more an issue than trying to find replacement SO2. And yes, it's not time yet. Put it through every tortuous test we can think of first so we know exactly what it's properties are. But there's very good cause for excitement! |
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Post by sheeplady on Aug 25, 2017 0:46:34 GMT
Based upon my reading on this site, I've decided that DRs are "fickle little monsters." (As in, like how you call your kid a little monster.) Cute fickle little monsters.  It seems like, of all the types, DRs (likely as the oldest) seem to all need eventually to be cracked open... if they work now, they eventually will need some sort of maintenance. I think if we're cracking one open, it makes sense to replace the refrigerant. Our DR is large enough that I don't want that level of SO2 in the house. It's always kind of dicey moving these things too... a slip and burning lungs. I'm of a moderate mind when it comes to chemicals... but you bring up some good points, blackhorse. |
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Post by coldspaces on Aug 25, 2017 3:07:36 GMT
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Post by blackhorse on Aug 25, 2017 4:08:19 GMT
So Ginny Pig #1 is still doing great on r124. I haven't had a lot of time to track it but one time it ran for 7 min. and was off 14 min. Another time it ran for 6 and off about 6. Here are the pics of the frosty evap I promised. drive.google.com/open?id=0B6Wm1OROcVR-RzFpaHp3TEVJYncMmm-- Pretty! |
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Post by birkie on Aug 25, 2017 11:30:29 GMT
So Ginny Pig #1 is still doing great on r124. I haven't had a lot of time to track it but one time it ran for 7 min. and was off 14 min. Another time it ran for 6 and off about 6. Here are the pics of the frosty evap I promised. drive.google.com/open?id=0B6Wm1OROcVR-RzFpaHp3TEVJYncThe frosted evaporator looks nice! The cycle times... seem like they may be a little over the map. I can see what Ray was saying about the control. Probably the most accurate (and least time consuming) way to get a better sense of the big picture is to let the kill-a-watt measure the overall power consumption over a day or two, divide by the number of hours to get average watts, then use the average cycle watts (probably 165-166 in this case) to calculate the average duty cycle over that time period? The R152a seemed to give this machine CK-like cycle times, at least in cold ambient, at the cost of higher watts. I'm willing to bet the R124 is transforming it back into a DR (well, as much as a DR with a CK evaporator can be) By the way, what are the approx. cabinet and ambient garage temps? |
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Post by coldspaces on Aug 25, 2017 13:07:39 GMT
Cabinet is running about 34 F and the garage is in the 70-80 F range most of the time right now.
I need to get 1 or 2 more Kill-a-watt's the only one I have is presently monitoring Ginny pig # 2 as it runs on so2.
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