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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 30, 2018 20:52:28 GMT
The control I gave you was from a CK1. If it was a larger heater, it wouldn't have protected the unit. Strange. It was a heavier heater coil than the CA had in it. The CA control that I clumsily broke was from the broken line rusty-top CA you gave me.
But you know how people tend to mix and match things....
Just to clarify; the CA control in the video was from the CA-2-B16 that I got a long time ago and did the previous thread with videos on.
The control I broke came from your broken-line CA top, which I planned to install on the formerly-seized CA top. It had the smallest heater coil.
The control you gave me, (for others info since you know) was missing the bellows and I got it for the knob. I salvaged the on/off/defrost knob from to fix the original control for my CK-2-B16. Then later on, I reassembled it using the bellows and knob from the CA control I smashed by accident. This is when I noticed the OL heaters were different and retained the one which came from the CA control.
Phwew, a lot of typing!
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Post by ChrisJ on Nov 30, 2018 22:28:53 GMT
Here's the email from Supco :
BTW, I'm running an RO81 in my CA form A. I also had the RO overload trip once before I did the capillary conversion which I think is why I emailed Supco in the first place.
The overload protector in a URO81 has a steady state RLA [run load amps] of 4 amps. This means that the UTC [ultimate trip current] is 4 amps. If the continuous draw amps exceeds 4 amps the URO81 will trip in about 15 seconds at a 70 degrees. The LRA [locked rotor amps] protection is 12 amps, this will trip in about 2 seconds. The URO81 is a PTC device and runs hot to the touch as all PTC relays do.
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Post by turbokinetic on Nov 30, 2018 22:44:41 GMT
Here's the email from Supco : BTW, I'm running an RO81 in my CA form A. I also had the RO overload trip once before I did the capillary conversion which I think is why I emailed Supco in the first place. The overload protector in a URO81 has a steady state RLA [run load amps] of 4 amps. This means that the UTC [ultimate trip current] is 4 amps. If the continuous draw amps exceeds 4 amps the URO81 will trip in about 15 seconds at a 70 degrees. The LRA [locked rotor amps] protection is 12 amps, this will trip in about 2 seconds. The URO81 is a PTC device and runs hot to the touch as all PTC relays do.
Nice, thank you!
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Post by cablehack on Dec 1, 2018 8:25:27 GMT
The step down transformer I run my CA-2 off has a 5A thermal circuit breaker on the 240V primary side to protect the transformer windings, not so much the fridge. However, it will trip well before the overload protection in the fridge is activated. If a CA doesn't start up within about 2 seconds, it's never going to start, and there's a definite problem that needs attending to. Initially I had a 3A breaker, but it did trip a couple of times on start up; luckily I was home when it did. I suspect the high current start up surges had altered the characteristics of the circuit breaker over time, because this started happening after it had been in use for some months. The 5A breaker has been in for something like five years and hasn't ever false tripped. I also have this gadget sitting on the floor under the fridge (yes I know it looks a bit crude and really needs to be put in a proper box):
It's a timer that shuts off the compressor if it should run continuously for more than 30 mins. A current transformer is used to detect when the compressor is running. The reason for making up this piece of circuitry was for when I first had the fridge operating, and it had its numerous blockage problems. I was worried about the compressor running continuously if I wasn't home to deal with it. There's a second timer which resets the whole thing after another 30 mins (a sufficient amount of time for the motor to cool down), and the fridge is started again. A 7W light bulb indicates it has timed out. If lucky, when it does start up after sufficient delay the blockage might clear.
Anyway, the blockage days are long behind, but when the NGC's get too much it can run longer than I'd like and they can build up quite fast to the point the fridge stops working, so the timer stays.
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Post by turbokinetic on Dec 1, 2018 14:10:21 GMT
The step down transformer I run my CA-2 off has a 5A thermal circuit breaker on the 240V primary side to protect the transformer windings, not so much the fridge. However, it will trip well before the overload protection in the fridge is activated. If a CA doesn't start up within about 2 seconds, it's never going to start, and there's a definite problem that needs attending to. Initially I had a 3A breaker, but it did trip a couple of times on start up; luckily I was home when it did. I suspect the high current start up surges had altered the characteristics of the circuit breaker over time, because this started happening after it had been in use for some months. The 5A breaker has been in for something like five years and hasn't ever false tripped. I also have this gadget sitting on the floor under the fridge (yes I know it looks a bit crude and really needs to be put in a proper box):
It's a timer that shuts off the compressor if it should run continuously for more than 30 mins. A current transformer is used to detect when the compressor is running. The reason for making up this piece of circuitry was for when I first had the fridge operating, and it had its numerous blockage problems. I was worried about the compressor running continuously if I wasn't home to deal with it. There's a second timer which resets the whole thing after another 30 mins (a sufficient amount of time for the motor to cool down), and the fridge is started again. A 7W light bulb indicates it has timed out. If lucky, when it does start up after sufficient delay the blockage might clear.
Anyway, the blockage days are long behind, but when the NGC's get too much it can run longer than I'd like and they can build up quite fast to the point the fridge stops working, so the timer stays.
Very nice setup there!
I like your thinking on the timer setup. In fact, I have a similar but less sophisticated system on the central A/C system at my house. It gives the compressor a maximum of 1 hour run time. If it runs more than one hour, it times out and requires me to manually cycle it off. This is to help with any possible problems that would happen in the event the evaporator freezes up or something else happens that renders it not functional. It has saved me twice. One time, the capacitor failed and it cycled on the thermal overload. The timer shut it off while I was out of town, and when I came home it was cycled off. No telling how many days it had been tripped. I simply changed the capacitor and all was good. The second time, it was due to freeze-up in high humidity but cool weather.
Interesting that your CA builds up NCG's so rapidly. I bet you have a thread on it somewhere here and will search for it, out of curiosity. Roughly how long does it run between purging?
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Post by cablehack on Dec 1, 2018 22:23:29 GMT
Roughly how long does it run between purging? The CA-2 needs to be purged at least twice a year, always after a few weeks of hot weather in summer when the room temperature has been 25-35C. With the capillary tube it will continue to run with good cycling times and have plenty of cooling capacity, even when the NCG's have built up to the point where only the top section of the condenser tubing is still warm (one sixth of the condenser capacity?). So, I can get a bit slack about purging it when I should...but then I get caught out; the frost line finally drops within a couple of days, etc. The CA-1 requires it a lot less frequently. Its behaviour is quite different to the CA-2 and it's the start of compressor rattling and shorter off times that motivates me to purge it. The CA-1 has never had the oil slug in the evaporator issue that occurs with the CA-2 every winter or two. From my CA-2 log book since the evaporator transplant (25th March 2016): 28th May 2016 - Rattling and contracting frost. Start of cold weather. Purging made no diff. Restart from warm & OK (oil slug). 29th Dec 2016 - Timed out. 29C in kitchen. 1/2 condenser had NCG. Purged until warmth almost at float valve. 4th March 2017 - Purge. Several weeks of 30C room temp in Jan/Feb. Power up to 232W & over 10 min run times [normally 2.5 to 4 mins]. 1st July 2017 - Rattling since cold weather. Stalled. Many attempts to restart. Purged, although did not need it. Oil slug in evap. 200-300W power draw. Tilted top to get oil from bottom of evap. Power consumption dropped as this was done. 28th Dec 2017 - Purge. Stall on start up. Increased power consumption noticed a few days ago. 9th March 2018 - Purge. Took about an hour. Constant rattling and start up rattles for about a week. 19th May 2018 - Purge. Constant rattling. Kitchen temp 13C. Two start up stalls in previous weeks. I don't want to give the idea the CA-2 is a bad design from that. It's just that's what happens when someone breaks a refrigerant line and leaves it open to the atmosphere for a few years. On the other hand, looking at the CA-1 it requires a lot less maintenance. It lives in my computer room, so I'm subconsciously aware of anything happening to its cycling times, being next to it several hours a day. 11th Nov 2013 - charge finalised and put into use. 12th April 2015 - Purge. Rattling and low frost 11th Dec 2015 - Purge. Running well but 1/2 condenser warm. 5th July 2016 - Purge. Low frost after defrosting, only 10 mins off time. 4 x 3 minute purges required. 21st March 2017 - Purge. Cycle times 9 mins off, 4 mins on. Low frost. Not rattling. [off time should typically be 16 mins] 3rd May 2018 - Purge. Low frost, rattling slightly.
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Post by turbokinetic on Dec 1, 2018 22:36:02 GMT
Awesome, thank you so much for the log book info. I wish I had the organizational skills to keep logs like that.
I'm so pleased that you are taking such careful notes and doing what it takes to keep your CA-2 running, with its history of the broken line. It's clear that you really care about it and want to see it keep working.
My currently running CA has as far as I know never had a broken line.
I did repair another, second one which did have a broken line. I evacuated it overnight but the room was cool. I plan to evacuate it again, after heating the entire unit up to around 50°C and letting it bake and vac overnight. That's the one I am concerned about. It had the broken line, as well as I stupidly tried to recover methyl formate from another unit into it. That other unit ended up being a horrible burnout and I am sure I pulled some bad stuff into the running unit.
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Post by cablehack on Dec 1, 2018 23:24:05 GMT
Awesome, thank you so much for the log book info. I wish I had the organizational skills to keep logs like that. I'm so pleased that you are taking such careful notes and doing what it takes to keep your CA-2 running, with its history of the broken line. It's clear that you really care about it and want to see it keep working. My currently running CA has as far as I know never had a broken line. I did repair another, second one which did have a broken line. I evacuated it overnight but the room was cool. I plan to evacuate it again, after heating the entire unit up to around 50°C and letting it bake and vac overnight. That's the one I am concerned about. It had the broken line, as well as I stupidly tried to recover methyl formate from another unit into it. That other unit ended up being a horrible burnout and I am sure I pulled some bad stuff into the running unit. That's only part of it There are pages and pages of cycling time records from when I was experimenting with the cap tube length and charge amount. It all seems so second nature now, but in 2012 when I got the fridge there was virtually no information and I was new to refrigeration anyway. Yes, you could say I'm obsessive with my CA's, but to me they are like a living thing with their own personalities, and as such need looking after. After all, I don't have the luxury in this part of the world to just get another top in better condition. On a positive note I wouldn't have learned anything about refrigeration if I hadn't been through all of this.
For your machine with a broken line, I found that R22 cleaned out the system rather well, as well as being good for a leak test. Once I'd used that, the amount of purging required dropped dramatically.
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Post by turbokinetic on Dec 1, 2018 23:56:03 GMT
Awesome, thank you so much for the log book info. I wish I had the organizational skills to keep logs like that. I'm so pleased that you are taking such careful notes and doing what it takes to keep your CA-2 running, with its history of the broken line. It's clear that you really care about it and want to see it keep working. My currently running CA has as far as I know never had a broken line. I did repair another, second one which did have a broken line. I evacuated it overnight but the room was cool. I plan to evacuate it again, after heating the entire unit up to around 50°C and letting it bake and vac overnight. That's the one I am concerned about. It had the broken line, as well as I stupidly tried to recover methyl formate from another unit into it. That other unit ended up being a horrible burnout and I am sure I pulled some bad stuff into the running unit. That's only part of it There are pages and pages of cycling time records from when I was experimenting with the cap tube length and charge amount. It all seems so second nature now, but in 2012 when I got the fridge there was virtually no information and I was new to refrigeration anyway. Yes, you could say I'm obsessive with my CA's, but to me they are like a living thing with their own personalities, and as such need looking after. After all, I don't have the luxury in this part of the world to just get another top in better condition. On a positive note I wouldn't have learned anything about refrigeration if I hadn't been through all of this.
For your machine with a broken line, I found that R22 cleaned out the system rather well, as well as being good for a leak test. Once I'd used that, the amount of purging required dropped dramatically.
Totally agree these are as close to a living thing as any machine can get. That's for sure. I did remember reading about the R22 purge making a big improvement in the NCG generation.
I was out of N2 when I evacuated that unit. I equalized the pressure with R152A vapor. I may evacuate it again and equalize it with R22 vapor and let it sit like that until I get around to charging it. Now too overwhelmed with other projects if you know what I mean.
I am definitely planning to experiment with capillary tube conversion, based on your research, and info from Chris as well. I'm very grateful for that, and the forum in general!
I bet it's not cheap to send something that heavy across the pond to Australia, for sure! How many others have you seen there?
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Post by ChrisJ on Dec 2, 2018 2:22:15 GMT
Keep in mind, besides moisture, methyl formate also breaks down at high temperatures over time.
My CA-2-A16 has never needed to be bled since 2015. It shows no sign of issues either, condenser still gets warm all the way to the bottom. But I keep my kitchen cool all year, though it did get into the low 80s for about a week in 2017. Besides that, it's usually in the high 60s in there, low 70s at the warmest.
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Post by turbokinetic on Dec 2, 2018 14:13:36 GMT
Keep in mind, besides moisture, methyl formate also breaks down at high temperatures over time. My CA-2-A16 has never needed to be bled since 2015. It shows no sign of issues either, condenser still gets warm all the way to the bottom. But I keep my kitchen cool all year, though it did get into the low 80s for about a week in 2017. Besides that, it's usually in the high 60s in there, low 70s at the warmest.
Yep, that's one of the reasons I like a fast-acting overload breaker. It will help to stop the motor winding from getting locally high temperature areas which could result in any MF on it at that point from breaking down.
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Post by cablehack on Dec 2, 2018 22:28:06 GMT
How many others have you seen there?
In person, I have only seen three others; the one that got me into all of this - it belonged to a friend's grandmother who was still using it in 1979; that was the last time I saw it. It was a CK or CA. Then in 2000, I saw what I now know to be a CK-2 in the window of a fridge shop in Sydney. I pestered them but they wouldn't sell it and said it "was out of gas" . And, lastly, in June last year there was a globe top in a regional museum I visited. They were certainly a lot more common years ago. So often when someone sees my two monitor tops they'll say "My...(insert name of relative here)...had one of these". For some reason they just didn't survive here as they have in the U.S.
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Post by turbokinetic on Dec 2, 2018 23:03:55 GMT
How many others have you seen there?
In person, I have only seen three others; the one that got me into all of this - it belonged to a friend's grandmother who was still using it in 1979; that was the last time I saw it. It was a CK or CA. Then in 2000, I saw what I now know to be a CK-2 in the window of a fridge shop in Sydney. I pestered them but they wouldn't sell it and said it "was out of gas" . And, lastly, in June last year there was a globe top in a regional museum I visited. They were certainly a lot more common years ago. So often when someone sees my two monitor tops they'll say "My...(insert name of relative here)...had one of these". For some reason they just didn't survive here as they have in the U.S.
Wow, interesting. I wonder if they didn't survive, as in a lower percentage of the total number sold are still in existence; or if there were fewer to begin with and therefore there are proportionally fewer now?
We lose a lot of history each time scrap metal prices are high. I wonder if that was a driving factor in a lot of them being removed in Australia?
Don't get me wrong, there are very few here as well. It's just that we have a good forum here, where a high number of them from around the country are represented.
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Post by cablehack on Dec 4, 2018 2:00:44 GMT
Wow, interesting. I wonder if they didn't survive, as in a lower percentage of the total number sold are still in existence; or if there were fewer to begin with and therefore there are proportionally fewer now? From what I've been able to work out, they were only sold in the eastern states. Also, in the 1930's only the cities and large towns had reticulated electricity. If you like kerosene fridges, Australia is the place to be because they seem to be quite prolific in comparison. Having said that, it doesn't explain the lack of monitor tops today in the areas that did have AGE dealers. Something seemed to change around the late 1990's - it was suddenly fashionable to get rid of anything old. I don't know if the home renovation shows that started to appear on TV at the time had anything to do with it, but it is very rare to see an original kitchen or bathroom in an old house now. Back in the 1970's, most suburban shopping strips had a second hand/junk store, and no doubt there would have been quite a few MT's to be had then. These have all gone now because the modern generation only buys new disposable furniture and appliances. Second hand shops now exist in the form of selling "retro" because it's in vogue...and charge accordingly. But you won't find an old fridge or black and white TV in such a place any more; just coloured plastic things like lamps and picnic sets from the 60's and 70's instead. In my years of patrolling council clean ups (where everyone puts their junk out on the nature strip for collection) I have never seen a MT put out. I'd guess they were all privately dumped, or traded in (and then dumped). Australian houses don't have below ground basements like in the U.S., so if something isn't wanted it tends to get disposed of quickly rather than just being put out of sight out of mind. trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17210464?searchTerm=general electric monitor top &searchLimits=l-availability=y|||l-australian=y|||l-category=
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Post by Travis on Dec 4, 2018 4:53:28 GMT
John,
I can tell you what happened in the 1990's and beyond. The older generation that bought and valued good things started to die, coupled with our "everything new is green" mindset came upon us. There's a nice huge 1960's chest freezer in the basement of my grandparents house. When my grandfather died, my parents cleaned it out. Then my father was hell-bent to get rid of the freezer, even though it wasn't in the way. I bitched and told him to unplug it. I had the last laugh as months later he needed to store a quantity of meat. I told him to turn on the freezer and he did. Normal people, including my father, have been conditioned to think that using anything vintage will destroy the world, pay no mind the all the open doors at the stores.
The Midwest is thankfully chocked full of vintage items. We have basements, sheds and low land value and less of an enviro-nazi mindset that causes these things to be discarded
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