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Post by blackhorse on Nov 7, 2014 4:27:30 GMT
Strangely the compressor is shipped with mineral oil! From what I have learned from a restoration company and on the forum I believe that 134a and Poe oil with flooded evap is a problem. The liquid in the evap becomes oil logged and causes trouble. With the mineral oil it will rise to the top and the skimmer will scoop it up. Well, it shouldn't be any more of a problem than it was with SO2, it doesn't mix with mineral oil either; I think the problems usually occurred when there was some shortage of refrigerant, so oil return didn't work as intended. If you want it to be miscible you can get a can of "conversion" 134a from the auto supply (intended for converting R-12 automotive systems to work on 134a), contains additives in 134a to make it mix with mineral oil. Usually only use the one can and regular 134a for the rest of the charge, unless the total charge is more than about 3 Lbs. Or not; I've had no trouble getting good frost patterns on the evaporator with 134a. Attachments:
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Post by allan on Nov 7, 2014 17:42:55 GMT
Wow thanks for the great pics! I have so many questions! It appears those are 2 different machines. What models are they? Looks like one is a cap tube and one a txv? Did you do a suction line restrictor? How do they sound? How long since the conversion and are they everyday user?
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 8, 2014 1:22:32 GMT
Wow thanks for the great pics! I have so many questions! It appears those are 2 different machines. What models are they? Looks like one is a cap tube and one a txv? Did you do a suction line restrictor? How do they sound? How long since the conversion and are they everyday user? Same machine, TXV, different views. I imagine the cap you see is the massive excess of cap tube for the TXV bulb. It's more complicated than a cap tube, but the characteristics of the TXV better match those of the float valve. The TXV is the full-stop type, not the equalizing type; which prevents over-filling the evap during the off cycle. Which prevents flooding back to the compressor on start-up, and the clattering noise. 1/6 Hp CK-30-C16 No restrictor, several scotch yoke machines I've used R-12 and more lately 134a do fine in all respects without restriction. I wouldn't try to use 134a (or R-12) in a DR; I will go with the Environmentally Sensitive Replacement for R-114 when I bring my DR inside. Sounds just about like it did before the float valve decided to misfire, you can hear it anywhere in the room right after it starts but you have to be right next to it to hear it before it shuts off. Been about a year and a half now, daily use in the house for the last 35 years. (I had to turn it back a notch going from summer to winter, even indoors).
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Post by allan on Nov 8, 2014 2:18:21 GMT
Very interesting! I guess you are using the original mineral oil? How much superheat are you maintaining with the txv valve? I have blown up part of your picture and can't figure out what this is. It looks like a weird Everdure tube that is coming out of the float tank, but it seems to have two very small copper tubes coming out of it. I am confused. Seen a lot of MT but not this
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Post by allan on Nov 8, 2014 2:21:01 GMT
Here it it is zoomed in. I am sure I am missing something here.
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 8, 2014 5:14:21 GMT
That is to a large extent the way it came from the factory; I added a "T" in the float outlet tube to connect the TXV outlet tube.
The base of the float chamber has/had: 1) A larger than usual Everdure with a square cross section tube wrapped around it many times as a heat exchanger from the cold evap suction line to the warm valve base (incoming liquid). 2) The valve outlet tube going to the evap inlet. 3) A process tube next to it connecting the float chamber (not the valve itself) to the accumulator tank on the evap, crimped by the factory after evacuating and charging. This would have provided a path to allow the low side to evacuate using only the high side float tank service fitting. This is a technique I have seen on GE refrigerators up to the date they stopped making their own compressors and started using Tecumseh.
Yes it's the original mineral oil, I've heard somewhere it's a bit thinner and contains the secret additive "Magic", so wherever possible I try to use it without mixing in anything else.
The superheat is pretty small, the sensor bulb is only about 2 inches from the evap. Basically I turned it as low as it would go and backed it out a half turn every few hours until I got a full frost pattern on all the refrigerant passages on the evap. The last to fill in were the center passages below the accumulator, on the inside of the evap. Then I turned it open an additional 1/2 turn, to allow for changes in loading, warm food, ice trays, etc. Then watched the suction line to be sure it wasn't frosting back toward the compressor.
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Post by coldspaces on Nov 8, 2014 5:20:52 GMT
That is to a large extent the way it came from the factory; I added a "T" in the float outlet tube to connect the TXV outlet tube. The base of the float chamber has/had: 1) A larger than usual Everdure with a square cross section tube wrapped around it many times as a heat exchanger from the cold evap suction line to the warm valve base (incoming liquid). 2) The valve outlet tube going to the evap inlet. 3) A process tube next to it connecting the float chamber (not the valve itself) to the accumulator tank on the evap, crimped by the factory after evacuating and charging. This would have provided a path to allow the low side to evacuate using only the high side float tank service fitting. This is a technique I have seen on GE refrigerators up to the date they stopped making their own compressors and started using Tecumseh. Yes it's the original mineral oil, I've heard somewhere it's a bit thinner and contains the secret additive "Magic", so wherever possible I try to use it without mixing in anything else. The superheat is pretty small, the sensor bulb is only about 2 inches from the evap. Basically I turned it as low as it would go and backed it out a half turn every few hours until I got a full frost pattern on all the refrigerant passages on the evap. The last to fill in were the center passages below the accumulator, on the inside of the evap. Then I turned it open an additional 1/2 turn, to allow for changes in loading, warm food, ice trays, etc. Then watched the suction line to be sure it wasn't frosting back toward the compressor. Was wondering about the supper heat also. I figured you must have it set pretty low if the evap was truly being flooded as originally intended. Frost pattern sure looks like it is.
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 8, 2014 5:30:15 GMT
I pretty much assumed I would have to do some mucking around with it, several tries to get it right; the factory setting wasn't going to do it. They somehow neglected to include instructions for G.E. SO2--134a conversions in the package. I installed the adjustment fitting and a low-side service valve in a small panel at the front, so I could service just by opening the door instead of lifting the unit. Some details on setting charge and superheat with TXV: The TXV system won't show a slight low charge the same way a capillary or float system does (dropping frost line); the TXV will try to keep the frost line where it is set by superheat, as much as it can, by passing some gas (since there's a shortage of liquid). So low charge will appear as less or no frost accumulation on the tube from the TXV to the evaporator, and on the first refrigerant passage of the evaporator (since they will be a bit warmer from the gas entering the evaporator from the TXV). So full charge will be frost accumulation from the TXV discharge port to the frost line on the accumulator. Theoretically you could charge until the receiver is nearly full, a great surplus, but if the TXV passes any liquid during the off cycle the evaporator will flood back to the compressor on start-up. So in my opinion less is better. Liquid refrigerant flooding back to the compressor makes a characteristic quite audible sound that I will describe as sort of like the sound of marbles rolling around in the bottom of a coffee can. Not really, but you get the idea. If the sound occurs immediately on start-up, the charge is leaking into the evaporator during the off cycle. Smaller charge is called for. If the sound occurs several seconds after start-up, the superheat is set too small; it's taking several seconds for the TXV bulb to respond to the suction line temperature. Turn superheat adjust a half turn at a time and let it run to normal temp and try again. (Setting to too little superheat is more pronounced if you let the unit go to shutoff and then turn off or unplug for a half hour or hour before restart.) Attachments:
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Post by coldspaces on Nov 8, 2014 5:38:40 GMT
Nice, is that a suction filter the low side valve is run from?
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 8, 2014 6:18:23 GMT
Nice, is that a suction filter the low side valve is run from? No, just coincidental positioning of parts in the space available. The low side service valve is connected to the stub from the (previously) crimped process tube, so is connected to the accumulator tank. You can see it as the dark tube hidden in shadow in the top of the pic going toward the back. The large alumina block filter dryer serves as the liquid receiver, and feeds (filtered) high pressure liquid into the TXV. It keeps the condenser and deck tube loop empty of liquid, just like the float valve used to, so the full condenser surface is available for heat exchange instead of partly filled with liquid like with a capillary system. It is wrapped with 1/4 inch thick closed-cell foam insulation so it doesn't transfer high-side heat into the cooled space. I tried it both ways, it didn't make any measurable difference in cycle times, but still seems like a good idea to insulate it.
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Post by coldspaces on Nov 8, 2014 6:24:42 GMT
Nice, is that a suction filter the low side valve is run from? No, just coincidental positioning of parts in the space available. The low side service valve is connected to the stub from the (previously) crimped process tube, so is connected to the accumulator tank. You can see it as the dark tube hidden in shadow in the top of the pic going toward the back. The large alumina block filter dryer serves as the liquid receiver, and feeds (filtered) high pressure liquid into the TXV. It keeps the condenser and deck tube loop empty of liquid, just like the float valve used to, so the full condenser surface is available for heat exchange instead of partly filled with liquid like with a capillary system. It is wrapped with 1/4 inch thick closed-cell foam insulation so it doesn't transfer high-side heat into the cooled space. I tried it both ways, it didn't make any measurable difference in cycle times, but still seems like a good idea to insulate it. Wow you sure sounds like you have covered all the bases. Wouldn't have thought to use the filter as the receiver right off and didn't think about the fact the condenser coil holds no liquid with the original float. Great info blackhorse.
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 14, 2014 4:40:26 GMT
Picture showing parts placement: Attachments:
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 14, 2014 4:41:49 GMT
Detail of receiver: Attachments:
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 14, 2014 4:43:56 GMT
Placement of sensor bulb for TXV on suction line (wrapped in closed-cell foam insulation): Attachments:
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Post by blackhorse on Nov 14, 2014 4:55:49 GMT
View of this unit (next to honkin huge Carrier freezer). Attachments:
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