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Post by C. G. H. on Sept 7, 2020 23:46:23 GMT
I'm not really sure which board to post this in since it's about GE refrigerators and other brands, but this seemed like the most appropriate one.
I recently bought a house from 1925, and I'd really like to put the kitchen back to a "closer to original" state. Part of that plan involves getting a vintage refrigerator for it. I think my ideal might be a late 30s to early 40s GE flat top since a number of people I know with restored old houses seem to use those without issue, but I'm not dead set on one. What I'm really concerned about is reliability since this would be the primary (and only) fridge in the house. I'm familiar with maintaining regularly used antiques, I just don't want to end up with the 50s MG of fridges when I could've ended up with the 60s Ford Falcon in terms of maintenance.
With those factors in mind, here are the questions I have:
1. Is there a general (I know these things are controversial) ranking of reliability among the common brands of refrigerators from the mid-30s through about 1950-ish? From what I gather GE is the most reliable and easiest to service, but what about Philco or Frigidaire for example? There's a 1946 Philco for sale for $450 near me that is in pretty great shape ("works great", really clean inside, no missing shelves, has original manual) but I have no frame of reference to know if a 1946 Philco is less trustworthy than something like a 1940 GE.
2. I'm technically handy, have restored tube radios and daily drive a vintage car that I maintain, so I can spot obvious problems. But are there any general issues to keep an eye out for when looking for these vintage refrigerators? Noises, smells? I've only ever been around modern fridges so if a vintage fridge was louder I might not know if that's normal or a sign of a problem.
3. I know that vintage fridges generally shouldn't be tipped on their sides, and that monitor tops are only held together by gravity, but if a fridge is transported on it's side but then allowed to stand upright for a few days before being plugged in is that an issue? Driving 6 hours to get "the perfect" fridge sounds more manageable if I don't also have to figure out how to transport it upright that far too.
4. I know this is a huge range, but what would you be willing to pay for an average "pretty good" condition refrigerator that wasn't a special model? I see people asking anywhere from $100 to $800 for clean looking functioning refrigerators, and I just don't know if paying $700 for an 8 out of 10 1940 Flat Top is reasonable or too much.
Thanks for any guidance you've got for me!
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Post by ChrisJ on Sept 8, 2020 10:57:14 GMT
David,
A few things.
1: The CK design was released in 1935 with the nipple on top. I believe there were also some CK's out in 1934 including the CG (Ball / Globe top) even though that's not technically a CK.
2: Your description of the CA condenser has me a bit baffled. I'd swear you were describing a DR condenser? CA has a plate condenser just like the CKs.
Did you mean DR's are the least reliable?
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Post by Travis on Sept 8, 2020 18:34:04 GMT
CK’s are the best, followed by the CA’s and finally the DR’s. As with everything in life, the sexier it is, the more high maintenance it is.
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Post by ChrisJ on Sept 8, 2020 19:04:44 GMT
CK’s are the best, followed by the CA’s and finally the DR’s. As with everything in life, the sexier it is, the more high maintenance it is. Luckily sexy is subjective, in my case the CK is where it's at. I'm not saying a restored DR isn't nice......that red and copper one John Higdon did was amazing. And let's not forget many prefer the flat top and 1950s style refrigerators.
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 8, 2020 21:02:59 GMT
I tried to make a minor edit to my post, however now the post is gone?
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Post by ChrisJ on Sept 8, 2020 21:44:19 GMT
I tried to make a minor edit to my post, however now the post is gone? I didn't do it.
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 8, 2020 22:18:36 GMT
I tried to make a minor edit to my post, however now the post is gone? I didn't do it. It loaded in the editor, then I edited the DR info posted as for a CA. Submitted it, then got the Something is Wrong page. Reloaded the page and post was gone.
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Post by C. G. H. on Sept 9, 2020 19:55:45 GMT
I didn't do it. It loaded in the editor, then I edited the DR info posted as for a CA. Submitted it, then got the Something is Wrong page. Reloaded the page and post was gone. I've got to admit this conversation makes very little sense without it. I'm sure it contained wonderful information I'm now deprived of.
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 9, 2020 20:28:37 GMT
It loaded in the editor, then I edited the DR info posted as for a CA. Submitted it, then got the Something is Wrong page. Reloaded the page and post was gone. I've got to admit this conversation makes very little sense without it. I'm sure it contained wonderful information I'm now deprived of. I had made a reply, then before posting it, decided to break it up to reply number-by-number to your original post. Apparently I copied and pasted wrongly, putting some info about one model where another should be. When I tried to edit that yesterday, the entire post was lost because of a software error. I will try to find time to recreate it today but work has been incredibly demanding and not sure if I will have time. I am so sorry about this.
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Post by ChrisJ on Sept 10, 2020 16:52:50 GMT
Turbo's was far more detailed but just to get things moving you're most likely looking for a CK series with the nipple on top of the compressor
They have the controls on the center of the condenser but the nipple on top is important. The CA form B looks almost the same but has a relay sticking out on the back and no nipple
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Post by C. G. H. on Sept 19, 2020 22:21:16 GMT
Thanks! I'll take any advice.
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Post by turbokinetic on Sept 20, 2020 2:40:35 GMT
I'm not really sure which board to post this in since it's about GE refrigerators and other brands, but this seemed like the most appropriate one.
I recently bought a house from 1925, and I'd really like to put the kitchen back to a "closer to original" state. Part of that plan involves getting a vintage refrigerator for it. I think my ideal might be a late 30s to early 40s GE flat top since a number of people I know with restored old houses seem to use those without issue, but I'm not dead set on one. What I'm really concerned about is reliability since this would be the primary (and only) fridge in the house. I'm familiar with maintaining regularly used antiques, I just don't want to end up with the 50s MG of fridges when I could've ended up with the 60s Ford Falcon in terms of maintenance.
With those factors in mind, here are the questions I have:
1. Is there a general (I know these things are controversial) ranking of reliability among the common brands of refrigerators from the mid-30s through about 1950-ish? From what I gather GE is the most reliable and easiest to service, but what about Philco or Frigidaire for example? There's a 1946 Philco for sale for $450 near me that is in pretty great shape ("works great", really clean inside, no missing shelves, has original manual) but I have no frame of reference to know if a 1946 Philco is less trustworthy than something like a 1940 GE.
2. I'm technically handy, have restored tube radios and daily drive a vintage car that I maintain, so I can spot obvious problems. But are there any general issues to keep an eye out for when looking for these vintage refrigerators? Noises, smells? I've only ever been around modern fridges so if a vintage fridge was louder I might not know if that's normal or a sign of a problem.
3. I know that vintage fridges generally shouldn't be tipped on their sides, and that monitor tops are only held together by gravity, but if a fridge is transported on it's side but then allowed to stand upright for a few days before being plugged in is that an issue? Driving 6 hours to get "the perfect" fridge sounds more manageable if I don't also have to figure out how to transport it upright that far too.
4. I know this is a huge range, but what would you be willing to pay for an average "pretty good" condition refrigerator that wasn't a special model? I see people asking anywhere from $100 to $800 for clean looking functioning refrigerators, and I just don't know if paying $700 for an 8 out of 10 1940 Flat Top is reasonable or too much.
Thanks for any guidance you've got for me!
Hi Christian. I'll try to retype what I lost which hasn't been covered already by others! Back in the day, GE was the top-dog with engineering long life into their refrigerating machinery. They were also very expensive compared to other brands. As Chris said, the most reliable Monitor Top fridges have the Scotch Yoke compressor, identified by a round "bump" in the center of the top of the compressor housing. There are no lines or tubing going into this bump or anywhere else on top of the compressor. The CK Monitor Top, and the CF Flat-Top have this compressor. The competition was not shabby, though. Westinghouse also has a nearly bulletproof hermetic compressor; as long as you are sure to get one which came with F-12 refrigerant and not SO2. These have a unique sound and look amazing with cooling fins on them. General Motors had the Frigidaire Meter-Miser compressor in the late 30's and kept a variant of that design into the 70's if I remember correctly. The Meter-Miser has a lot fewer moving parts than the GE Scotch Yoke machine; however the core of the compressor mechanism was very costly to manufacture. They traded mechanical simplicity for a very costly machining process to actually manufacture the compressor. The Meter-Miser systems do have one Achilles heal. Actually all fridges other than GE had this issue in the early days. GE patented the original metal-glass-fused pass-through electrical terminals. The GE design is a true, fused, hermetic design. There are no organic materials involved. There are no leaks at the terminals with GE. They defended this patent vigorously and would not license the design to any other makers. So everyone else had second-best designs. Frigidaire used a compressed rubber sleeve design which does well. It is unfortunately on the bottom of the compressor where the terminals are vulnerable to impact. People often damage them when they transport the fridge, and a dolly is used incorrectly under the bottom of the machine. Westinghouse used a resin of some type to make their terminal bushings. This was a disaster when exposed to SO2 refrigerant. The newer Westinghouse units had solved this problem by moving away from SO2 and using a less reactive refrigerant. So my point is, look carefully at the bottom of the compressor area. Focus on where the wires go in and be sure that there is no oil staining around that point. If there is oil staining this would mean there is a leak developing at this point. This applies to any vintage fridge other than GE; up until the later 50's. Philco are reliable, with most of them finally rusting out before the compressor is worn out. Look for a non-rusty example and you should not have problems with it. As for noise, each design of compressor as its own acoustic emission characteristic. Only experience can really tell you whether one sounds "perfectly normal" or not. In general, rattling, tapping, or any sort of sharp, repetitive noise is bad since it would indicate loose fit with the parts. One exception to this is the Frigidaire Meter-Miser; which is always going to rattle upon startup when it has been sitting turned off more than for one normal cycle. It will rattle for a moment then quiet down. Bottom line is this. These are designed to be used in someone's home where quietness was a big selling factor. So any loud noise at all is generally not normal. When it comes to GE designs; the DR (with open coils) and the CA (round condenser, methyl formate) both can rattle loudly. This is not normal for them. GE designed these to operate with an oil heater in operation at all times. If this oil heater is not working, there will be problems. So if you end up with a DR or a CA, please follow the guidance here to test and replace the heater if needed. Allowing these to run and run and run while rattling can result in damage. As for laying fridges down, people argue about this all the time. I think my opinion is relatively well qualified (due to experience) compared to many who offer loud opinions on Facebook and elsewhere. With these compressors, you have a "decades old" mechanical device inside a steel housing with a few inches of oil in the bottom. Over the thousands and thousands of operating hours, there is some wear and tear and breakdown of oil which is inevitable. The oils in these are designed to allow particulate matter to settle to the bottom where it rests harmlessly. When you turn the fridge over; all the wear particles are agitated into the oil as it flows from the bottom to the side of the compressor housing. If any lines leaving the compressor housing are facing downward while the unit is turned on its side, oil can be driven out of the compressor by gravity and temperature changes. This can force wear particles from the compressor to go into places where they can do harm. So, my advice to you is this. If you have a one-piece fridge such as a Flat-Top or a Frigidaire - study the compressor carefully. If you have to lay it down, be sure that the compressor lines come from the side which will be facing UP when you lay it down. You will have to look at the compressor to be sure it is laid down on the correct side to ensure the lines don't face down. I know with Frigidiare, if you are facing the back of the cabinet, you should tip it over to your right, so that (while you are standing behind the fridge facing the back) the left side is what faces up. If it's a Monitor Top, ideally set the top upright on a crate. The cabinets on the nicest units are porcelain enamel coated. These require great care not to chip or crack the coating. Laying them on the side where the porcelain is down against the truck bed, is generally very risky. Even with multiple blankets under them, it's easy to have cracks and chips occur. I would recommend any "very nice" porcelain example to be transported upright for this reason. Finally; with transportation - the early compressors were often externally suspended. The compressor sits on springs. This isolates vibration from the motor, from getting to the cabinet and causing noise. The problem is, the compressor can bounce around violently on the springs when the unit is transported. This can break the refrigerant lines. To prevent this, most manufacturers have a lockdown procedure for the compressor. The General Electric FEA has such a procedure; as do the Frigidaire Meter-Miser and Westinghouse. If this isn't done, and the roads are rough, there is a chance of broken lines. The biggest "end of the road" killer of these is hacked rewiring jobs. The compressor has no internal safety device preventing motor damage. They depend on an external circuit breaker to disconnect power from the motor if there is too much current flow. Different designs locate the overload breaker in different areas of the machine. It is absolutely crucial that at least one functional overload device is in place in the system. For some GE machines, the overload breaker is integrated into the thermostat. People replace the thermostat with a "generic" one which does not include an overload breaker. This may seem to work at first, but eventually there will be a failed startup and the compressor will be burned out. The DR machines have the overload breaker built into the control; as do the CA. The later ones such as the CK have an additional overload breaker in the start-relay. All of the manuals are here on this site so you can study the wiring diagram for what you have; and see where the overload is supposed to be located. If you find a non-working fridge which has had wiring repairs done, unsuccessfully, then there is a chance it is damaged internally. I would offer "pennies on the dollar" for it or just walk away; unless it had a lot of good parts on it for saving other units. A last word about repairability. You've explained that you are a technical guy. That's good. There is a huge lack of qualified people who can work on antique refrigerators. If something goes wrong with it, you'll more than likely be on your own. It's very wise to plan for this contingency by looking for a fridge which has been proven compatible with modern refrigerants. This will greatly "soften the blow" if a line gets broken and you have to recharge it. The CK and other Scotch Yoke GE machines came with SO2, but are well tested with modern alternatives. The DR machines also came with SO2, and work with modern alternatives. DR's require more careful evacuation and purging during the charging. The CA units came with methyl formate. They operate at a low pressure and there are no easily obtainable replacements for MF. It is available but highly restricted and very expensive. I would say this is the worst one since it doesn't work with any off-the-shelf modern refrigerant, and also is a legal nightmare to obtain new. If you can obtain "old stock" R11 this is supposedly usable but I haven't worked with it. Sincerely, David
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Post by cablehack on Sept 20, 2020 11:29:44 GMT
The CA units came with methyl formate. They operate at a low pressure and there are no easily obtainable replacements for MF. It is available but highly restricted and very expensive. I would say this is the worst one since it doesn't work with any off-the-shelf modern refrigerant, and also is a legal nightmare to obtain new. If you can obtain "old stock" R11 this is supposedly usable but I haven't worked with it. If I can add to that, there have been at least a couple of CA's using R11, and the modern equivalent R123, that I can recall on the forum; both using float valves and capillary tubes. While one of them with a capillary tube could have been more optimised re tube length, the owner was satisfied with its performance. I was paying around A$128 per one litre bottle of methyl formate. It was easy to get - but only because I worked in an educational institution.
There's also R601a which should work, although not tested to my knowledge. Anyone who gets involved with a CA that's been open to atmosphere needs to make sure they can get a suitable refrigerant first, before embarking on the project, and if it's not methyl formate, and the machine needs a cap tube, tedious experimentation will be required to get it working properly.
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Post by C. G. H. on Sept 21, 2020 0:33:24 GMT
Thank you both so much for this information, this is exactly the sort of stuff that is really hard to sort out when just getting into a subject or hobby like this. Especially thank you turbokinetic, David, for re-typing everything you had already written out so I could see it. This post would be a great thing to direct someone else to in the future who is thinking about buying their first vintage/antique refrigerator.
- Christian
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Post by C. G. H. on Oct 7, 2020 1:26:47 GMT
Thanks in part to your help, I'm now the proud owner of a 1936 General Electric V-4-C with a CF-1-C16 unit!
When I got it into my kitchen and plugged it in the icebox frosted almost immediately, and it was quiet as a whisper, with just a gurgling audible. Inside and out this machine seems to be in impeccable condition, with absolutely no rust visible anywhere (thank you dry climate) and only a couple chips and scratches in the original paint.
It needs a new door seal, and I should replace the cord, but otherwise it seems like all it needs is some cleaning. I haven't timed the cycles, but it doesn't seem to run excessively.
Is there any preventative-type maintenance I should perform on it? I was planning on disassembling and cleaning things like the relay on whatever fridge I ended up getting, but this one is so clean that I wonder if I'd just be inviting trouble if I tried to take it apart. Is this an "ain't broke, don't fix it" situation, or can I save myself a failed relay in the future by taking it apart and lubing and cleaning components?
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