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Post by don on Apr 25, 2019 16:16:44 GMT
EVACUATING SO2 - DEJA VU!We know from reading the GE service manual that GE sold small canisters of R-12 for the purpose of adding it to their sulphur dioxide monitor tops. The R-12 would combine with the mineral oil and thin it out enuf to enable the oil to leave the evaporator and return to the compressor. In my career as a refrigeration mechanic I did considerable work on low temperature cascade refrigeration systems both very large and very small. On the smallest systems on the low temp compressor in a recharge procedure we would add R-12 from a 30 inch vacuum to bring it to 0# PSIG. We would then static pressure charge the system with the R-503 to the required static pressure shown on the label. The R-12 requirement was not on the label but we were told by the manufacturer that it was what did when they were manufactured. Here is a link to a RSES article on small cascade refrigeration systems and the additives added for oil return. www.rses.org/assets/serviceapplicationmanual/620-58a.pdf The refrigerants in the article are obsolete and no longer used. The larger and largest cascade refrigeration chambers used at the time R-13. On the label the static pressure charge was given and the ounces of pentane needed for oil return. We would add the needed ounces of pentane at a 100 micron vacuum and then static charge the machine to the name plate requirement with R-13. When we evacuated a system we used large heavy cast iron Sargent Welch scientific vacuum pumps that were mounted on wheels so they could be moved. The oil capacity for these pumps was probably a half gallon or more in the sump. When used to evacuate the systems with pentane added the pentane removed would combine with the vacuum pump oil and the oil level would rise in the vacuum pump. The oil would thin out enuf so that we sometimes had to change the oil to obtain our 100 micron requirement. We would always change the oil after each evacuation. I recently released the charge on my 1938 GE flatop and removed the float assembly and added a capillary tube and charged it with Envirosafe HC refrigerant. I will create a post on that in the future. I had purchased an air venturi vacuum pump to see if it would evacuate the system and was disapointed that it would only draw about 20 inches with my air compressor that matched the stated cfm requirements. From that 20 inch vacuum I switched to my small portable Robinair with a small oil reservoir. When I returned to check on the vacuum reading the pump was noisey and the oil level was over the top of the sight glass and I had about an 8 inch vacuum. Deja vu Pentane in the oil. The vacuum pump did not work after one two and three oil changes as the thinned out oil was stuck in the vanes of the pump. After multiple oil changes and running the pump after each change to get the new oil into the vanes the pump eventually worked. I was able to eventually finish evacuating the system. An unforgettable event. I can remember reading at least one other person having a disastrous time evacuating an SO2 system. It is my judgement that GENERAL ELECTRIC used pentane as an oil additive in the 1938 model year. The refrigerator is running excellent on the HC refrigerant and since the HC refrigerant is entirely miscible with mineral oil there is no reason or need for pentane.
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 26, 2019 0:30:29 GMT
Thanks for the great story about your experience with evacuating one of these!
I didn't have pentane dilution, but did have my vacuum pump seize up from corrosion after using it to evacuate a SO2 system!
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Post by allan on Apr 26, 2019 9:51:19 GMT
What is Envirosafe HC. I remember someone posting evacuating with an empty drum in a freezer. Haven’t tried it yet but seems like a good idea.
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Post by birkie on Apr 26, 2019 11:07:52 GMT
Fascinating! The manual says some flat tops were prone to restriction via oil thickening. I believe coldspaces has converted flat top to R124, mach is planning to, and I am as well at some point. Will keep an eye out to see if the same effect is observed by others. It's possible your machine had a problem that was addressed later on by a tech adding pentane to the system. By the way, my SO2 purging procedure is: * bleed into a sodium carbonate solution, calculate how much SO2 was removed in order to figure out original charge * Attach system to an evacuated copper coil in a dry ice and isopropyl alcohol solution. This will draw it down to 29" vacuum. Heat up collected liquid SO2 and and discard into washing soda solution * Break the vacuum with nitrogen, triple evacuate. While there is still a small amount SO2 passing through the vacuum pump at this stage, it's tolerable. It's not clear to me that pentane would be noticeable using this procedure - the dry ice step might remove some or all of it?, if present
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Post by don on Apr 26, 2019 11:31:11 GMT
I will create a future post on the successful change over to the ENVIROSAFE hydrocarbon refrigerant. When I bought my Hydrocarbon refrigerant years ago the cans I have stated it was a drop in for r-12 and r-134. Since then the government has become more senile and anal. (If an r-12 system has been converted to r-134 then this can be used to replace it.) I read where there are no conditions placed on the use of the hydrocarbon refrigerant to convert a system that did not originally use R-12 which is the case with converting SO2 systems to Hydrocarbon. Are you proposing using a container in a freezer with an in and out fitting as a cold trap in the vacuum line to the pump? I believe that would be the recommendations from the pump manufactures. Other people who have tried the air venturi vacuum say it works better at a higher air pressure than the 75psi stated in the manual. The manual states up to 180#psi can be used. If I convert my other flat top I am considering attaching two magnetic automobile engine heaters to the compressor and covering the compressor with a blanket. The heat should drive the pentane out of the oil with the air venture vacuum used intermittently over several days to maintain the paltry 20 inch vacuum it draws. The use of an electric pump for a final draw down would then be done. www.ebay.com/itm/Enviro-Safe-Modern-Refrigerant-Auto-A-C-R12-or-R134a-Replacement-Dye-6-Cans/152046114792?hash=item2366a797e8:g:JScAAOSwHqpa56Kd:sc:USPSPriorityFlatRateBox!55429!US!-1 www.968forums.com/topic/905-my-experience-with-hydrocarbon-refrigerants/
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Post by birkie on Apr 26, 2019 12:47:19 GMT
Are you proposing using a container in a freezer with an in and out fitting as a cold trap in the vacuum line to the pump? I believe that would be the recommendations from the pump manufactures. Not exactly. In my case, I first purge the machine until it's about at atmospheric pressure. What's left is a few ounces of SO2, which ends up being the equivalent of a couple cubic inches of liquid. So I attach the "cold trap" to the service kit, with the far end closed off with a ball valve. Evacuate it, immerse the coil in the dry ice solution, then open the service port. The SO2 migrates and condenses in the coil (due to the very low dry ice temperatures), leaving the machine in vacuum. Once trapped, the machine service port is closed, the SO2 trapped in the coil heated up, and the ball valve at the far end of the coil opened to purge the trapped SO2 from the coil as it evaporates. Only once te vacuum in the machine is broken with nitrogen (diluting the trace amount of SO2 in the machine) do I start a triple evacuation using the vacuum pump. That way, the vacuum pump never sees a full dose of SO2 go through it. If there is any pentane in a machine, I figure the dry ice stage might remove most of it alongside the SO2. See also: monitortop.freeforums.net/post/25203/thread
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Post by turbokinetic on Apr 27, 2019 0:37:49 GMT
I will create a future post on the successful change over to the ENVIROSAFE hydrocarbon refrigerant. When I bought my Hydrocarbon refrigerant years ago the cans I have stated it was a drop in for r-12 and r-134. Since then the government has become more senile and anal. (If an r-12 system has been converted to r-134 then this can be used to replace it.) I read where there are no conditions placed on the use of the hydrocarbon refrigerant to convert a system that did not originally use R-12 which is the case with converting SO2 systems to Hydrocarbon..... Don't forget that nobody has any right whatsoever to tell you what refrigerant you are allowed (or not allowed) to use on your equipment on your property. This is, afterall, still America. There is so much pointless puffery that has been blown around concerning this it's unreal!
I hope to read about your change over to HC refrigerant and learn from it. I'm all about alternatives which don't play into the "money game" which has developed around this subject.
Sincerely, David
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