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Post by allison on Oct 13, 2018 19:15:59 GMT
Hello, I am hoping some of the well-read folks here on the message board may offer some insight to a recent development pertaining to my CA-1-B16 or at least allay my hysteria.
Particulars Type: Type | CA-1-B16
| Serial No.
| 41-946-896
| Refrigerant | Methyl Fomate
| Temperature Set
| five (5)
| Defrost Sched.
| Every four to six weeks
| Defrost Method
| Pot of boiling water placed in cabinet, water reclaimed in chiller tray.
| Run Time
| 3 minutes 12 seconds
| Rest Time
| 3 minutes 10 seconds
| Load
| Full of delicious food
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Dateline, Thursday, October 11, 2018... having previously cooked up some delicious homemade meatballs for use in sub sammiches, I had some left over red sauce that was placed into a spare glass jar and allowed to cool on the counter. Before retiring for the evening, I placed the jar, which felt just a smidge over room temperature into the Monitor Top cabinet. A few hours later I was awoken by my youngest pup's barking indicating she needed to go outside... at 3:30 in the morning...grrr.
Anywho, once back into the kitchen I heard my dearly loved Monitor Top short-cycling: run for a minutes, shut off for like one minute, rinse-repeat. In addition when the unit would shut off, there was now a wooshing of liquid sound as opposed to the glug-glug-glug sound that has been consistent for the past two years since the machine entered service into my home.
Half asleep and in a panic I twisted the temperature knob from 5 to 9 to 1, hoping it would stop short cycling. Unfortunately when that did not resolve the short cycling, I unplugged the unit for about 10 minutes. Thereafter powered on the Monitor Top, set the temperature to 7 and let the machine run. Thankfully the super short-cycling has not returned. However, I am still hearing the wooooo-shhh sound when the compressor cycles off.
Is the woosh normal and the glug glug not normal, did my machine magically fix itself?? Or is this a sound of impending doom?
The Run & Rest Times listed in the table above have been pretty standard since placing the machine into service as my primary refrigerator. When first received and she was empty the Run/Rest times were approximately 5 minutes on 12 minutes off, but the machine has not been empty for any extended periord of time, save for when defrosting her for the month.
Any insight the board may offer shall be much-o-appreciado.
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Post by birkie on Oct 14, 2018 2:44:51 GMT
Is the woosh normal and the glug glug not normal, did my machine magically fix itself?? Or is this a sound of impending doom? While I have experience with DR and CK machines, I don't have any experience with CA machines. That being said, ~3 minutes on ~3 minutes off is not that great for any monitor top, unless it's in rather hot ambient temperatures. The CA machines are known to develop wear in their float valves. I'm not sure if it makes a distinctive sound, but it makes the on/off cycles less favorable, and can prevent the evaporator from getting as cold as it should. That could possible by happening to your machine, but I'm not really sure. The thing about the short on/off incident is that it was very acute. It happened all of a sudden, then went away. A quick scan through the service manual reveals a stuck check valve condition that kinda sorta sounds like what might have happened that night. Does the description of the symptoms below accurately describe your experience?
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Post by coldspaces on Oct 14, 2018 2:58:48 GMT
looks like birkie may be right on the money with this one.
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Post by cablehack on Oct 14, 2018 10:13:25 GMT
Short cycling can also be because the frost level on the evaporator has fallen below where the thermostat bellows tube attaches. And, as far as CA's are concerned, that's usually due to non condensable gas build up preventing the float valve opening when it should. If that's the situation, then it will be necessary to purge the NCG. I've never had it happen with my CA-1, but sometimes in winter, my CA-2 gets an oil slug in the evaporator which blocks refrigerant flow. Tilting the cabinet top while its running helps clear it, as does switching the compressor off for a while and putting a saucepan of hot water in the evaporator. Then when switching on after a few hours, the flow of refrigerant pushes the oil back into the compressor and it's all good for another year.
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Post by allison on Oct 14, 2018 17:10:22 GMT
Many many thanks for all the good information, I truly appreciate the help and am in the process of defrosting the machine this afternoon.
In reading the portion of the service manual that contains the caution:
Am I correct that the coils on the heater they refer to are similar to the Calrod elements on the stove top of an electric range; and thus placing a pot of boiling water in the freezing unit would be okay?
Sorry if that seems like a silly question, I just don't want to do any further harm to the machine.
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Post by Travis on Oct 14, 2018 18:13:46 GMT
Yes, you're correct. Hot water in a pan is just fine. I hope you have success. I love your nice post about searching and finding it.
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Post by csulaguy on Oct 14, 2018 22:31:38 GMT
I almost wish I had your top. Mine runs for about 20 minutes and seems like it's off between 4 and 9 (and it's also a CA). Sadly, the CA models were only produced in two years (1933 and 1934) for a reason.
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Post by ChrisJ on Oct 14, 2018 23:15:46 GMT
Every once in a while I'll put a burning hot aluminum ice cube tray in mine to help loosen up any oil that may be in the bottom of the evaporator.
The CA has absolutely no problem with this.
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Post by ChrisJ on Oct 14, 2018 23:20:34 GMT
I almost wish I had your top. Mine runs for about 20 minutes and seems like it's off between 4 and 9 (and it's also a CA). Sadly, the CA models were only produced in two years (1933 and 1934) for a reason. CA's were only produced for two years due to issues with non-condensables. These are formed if methyl formate comes in contact with moisture, or if becomes very hot. I suspect units these days that are run in air conditioned houses will rarely have this problem once any NCG is removed. The worn valve seats didn't appear until much much later. Although my theory is non-condensables are partially if not completely responsible for the badly damaged valves but it took a very long time. NCG aside, the CA machines are fantastic and certainly lasted far longer than any modern unit will.
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Post by csulaguy on Oct 14, 2018 23:43:22 GMT
I almost wish I had your top. Mine runs for about 20 minutes and seems like it's off between 4 and 9 (and it's also a CA). Sadly, the CA models were only produced in two years (1933 and 1934) for a reason. CA's were only produced for two years due to issues with non-condensables. These are formed if methyl formate comes in contact with moisture, or if becomes very hot. I suspect units these days that are run in air conditioned houses will rarely have this problem once any NCG is removed. The worn valve seats didn't appear until much much later. Although my theory is non-condensables are partially if not completely responsible for the badly damaged valves but it took a very long time. NCG aside, the CA machines are fantastic and certainly lasted far longer than any modern unit will. Given the fact that it seems CAs are almost as prevalent, if not more so than CKs, I'd go for that. This is probably a stupid question, but does the evap in a CA get as cold as it does in a CK/DR? I also need to start listening to the sounds my CA makes when it cycles on and off. I know the sound the motor makes, but the liquid whoosh soudns Allison mentioned, I've heard those before, and can't place which machine made those.
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Post by ChrisJ on Oct 14, 2018 23:51:45 GMT
CA's were only produced for two years due to issues with non-condensables. These are formed if methyl formate comes in contact with moisture, or if becomes very hot. I suspect units these days that are run in air conditioned houses will rarely have this problem once any NCG is removed. The worn valve seats didn't appear until much much later. Although my theory is non-condensables are partially if not completely responsible for the badly damaged valves but it took a very long time. NCG aside, the CA machines are fantastic and certainly lasted far longer than any modern unit will. Given the fact that it seems CAs are almost as prevalent, if not more so than CKs, I'd go for that. This is probably a stupid question, but does the evap in a CA get as cold as it does in a CK/DR? I also need to start listening to the sounds my CA makes when it cycles on and off. I know the sound the motor makes, but the liquid whoosh soudns Allison mentioned, I've heard those before, and can't place which machine made those. I don't believe so. If you look, all through the 30s refrigerator temperatures got lower and lower. The thermostat for a 1934 CA actually runs colder than a 1933 for example. A 1935 CK is even colder. My 1933 set to #9 and with the control tweaked slightly I can get the evaporator down to 6 degrees. I'm sure a 1935 and newer CK will go quite a bit colder.
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Post by elec573 on Oct 15, 2018 3:41:52 GMT
Allison welcome to the forum! If you've had it for 2 years I’d check it for ncg’s as well there’s a good video on that by cablehack.
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Post by csulaguy on Oct 15, 2018 3:58:10 GMT
Allison welcome to the forum! If you've had it for 2 years I’d check it for ncg’s as well there’s a good video on that by cablehack. I need to do a video on NCGs. Or a condensed version, rather. Although I don't like hearing my own voice, so my videos tend to be rather silent. If I'm not mistaken, the Bristol key you'll need to crack open the purge screw is a 0.216 old style. Everyone else correct me if I'm wrong. I bought 5 so I'd have spares. The company that has 'em only has like 40 or so left in stock.
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Post by ckfan on Oct 15, 2018 13:00:43 GMT
Glad to see that you are still taking care of this beauty. I would second the opinion of a stuck unloader. That makes sense. I would also second the need to see if it needs any non condensable gassed bled out. It’s actually very easy to do once you have the Bristol key and the instructions. You seem like you are very regimented anyways so you would probably enjoy the process. Just don’t stick your nose down in it and open a window because some members have complained of headaches while they bleed the gas. I’ve never had an issue with it.
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Post by csulaguy on Oct 15, 2018 17:12:36 GMT
Just don’t stick your nose down in it and open a window because some members have complained of headaches while they bleed the gas. I’ve never had an issue with it. What are you talking about? Methyl formate smells good. Almost has a hint of strawberries to it. That's the one thing I do like about these machines. No clue what sulfur dioxide smells like though, and not fixing to find out, though!
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